Exhibit A of the near-limitless power of the current government: A public corporation abandoned a product whose design and tooling was paid off decades ago, yet was still responsible for printing money nearly at a rate to make a production manager at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing envious.
And this was done "willingly" to appease, and avoid punishment from, the Powers in Charge.
A. Is your user a reference for Ice Nine Kills? If so, rad.
B. Nobody is more sick to their stomach from EV pipe dreaming and government mandates than those living close to Lordstown, OH. All we’ve had for the past 10 years are empty promises, con men and money funneling. It’s almost like watching the White House at work in real time. Yet we have the least amount of required infrastructure directly to support it all the same.
Probably a reference to Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle, or the Grateful Dead, whose music publishing company took the name, a secondhand reference to Vonnegut. Ice Nine is a fictional crystalline form of water that causes other water to freeze.
Perhaps. “Ice Nine Kills” is a metal/core band that kinda crosses a few genres but it’s rather known for “horror metal” and general theatrical metal.
Name wise for the band your guess is as good as mine. There was even an Ice Nine FPS video game they might’ve named themselves after as a joke. As for the OP I suppose he’ll have to fill us in on his own usage.
Ice Nice Kills was the genesis of the username, which the first time I heard of them, also triggered the long forgotten Vonnegut reference from reading that book in highschool. Since I live in a place that is generally below freezing for 6 months a year, seemed fitting.
It is a scientifically proven fact (I read it in a science journal) that people using the word “ice” at the beginning of a username are smarter, more attractive to women, better looking and more successful than other people.
the dumb part is it won't even save them. the Charger and everything like it might survive an EV transition (maybe, it's possible), but they won't survive GPS-based speed limiters and that's the next requirement in the pipe
i seriously doubt this will happen; i have older cars as a standby. and how long would it take for the car fleet to transition (excuse me) to all having this feature?
You will probably be able to avoid it personally, but do you not doubt that it will become a requirement on new cars? I think they're already mostly equipped with Breathalyzers.
The FMCSA (Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration) is already trying to foist speed restrictors on semi trucks, which has happened a while ago in Europe. If you think being stuck behind a semi who is in the left land on the Interstate for two miles is maddening now, wait till the Kenworth with the 66 mph limiter decides he doesn't want to be behind the Volvo with the 65 mph limiter.
I expect to see some trickle-down from commercial regulations into the private world.
One example: Electronic Logging Devices (ELD) are now mandatory in the USA and Canada. Commercial drivers driving over a certain distance away from home base have always had to record their daily work and rest hours, and locations traveled to, on paper logs. Commercial drivers have limits on how many hours a day/week they can drive, called Hours in Service.
The new ELDs use GPS and/or cell data to record the truck's locations. This data is currently held locally on the device (or can be transmitted back to the carrier's office), and the only time the truck cops will look at it is during an inspection, in a manner effectively no different from the truck cop reviewing your paper log. The ELD is plugged into the truck's data port (think OBD-II port, but different protocol) and also records the times the truck is moving, speed of the truck, and who knows what other parameters.
However it is a minuscule leap of technology to just stream all that data directly to the truck cops in real time. They have weigh-in-motions systems already, what's to say they can just flag the truck as it rolls by the weigh station for a HOS violation.
Some people are already plugging logging devices into their cars, helpfully provided by their insurance company, so that they can get a small discount on their insurance.
The next logical step is for the friendly state trooper to download your logging device as he has you pulled over on the side of the highway so he can see just how many times you hit triple digit speeds, and hell, how many stop signs you rolled through. Or the cops can just send you a ticket in the mail for your speeding infractions based on the data from your personal logging device.
Obviously there are lots of privacy concerns, though people seem to increasingly be willing to sacrifice privacy for the God of Safety.
This is a pipe dream, but the auto manufacturers should have told Big Government to pound sand on every EV mandate. Big Government would have then told automakers “then we’ll put you out of business” and the reply should have been “sure, go ahead, you explain to the American people why you just put a few million people out of work”.
Really stupid of the automakers not to tell Big Government “you don’t own us, WE own YOU!”
Public opinion is against the automakers in that arena. Push back against the regs and any number of GOs and NGOs will crush you with their limitless propaganda. Sadly, this has to run its course.
Mar 5·edited Mar 5Liked by Sherman McCoy, Jack Baruth
Prior to the last few years, I wouldn't have considered a Toyota or Lexus, but now Mr. Toyoda's stance it has me considering going that way, and pushing my dad to look at an IS350 to replace his S60. I just wish we got a Land Cruiser 300, as I'd probably be driving one today.
It's a very reasoned and principled stance: they can make about 50 hybrids using the resources it takes to make a single EV. And which one will save more resources in the aggregate?
BTW, you're probably talking Land Cruiser 100 or 200. The 300 is available today and is called the LX600. But that "600" does NOT mean 6 liter V-8; somewhere buried in very small print they say it's a 3.5L twin turbo V6. For $102,000.
Nope, I mean Land Cruiser 300. I didn't want to pay $80k for a used 200 in good shape. The TT V6 doesn't bother me, I bought an Expedition but would've preferred the regular Land Cruiser 300 for $80-90k. Sure I could've gotten an LX600 but going over $90k (LXs were going for $150 at the time with markup) was just way too expensive, and for how we use it the extra lux stuff on the Lexus is overkill.
Japan has no petroleum reserves of which to speak. They already are highly dependent on electricity generated with nuclear power. The country's biggest and most influential car company, Toyota, arguably the best run car company in the world, is just about the only international car company that hasn't pledged conversion to the EV religion. I think Akio may be on to something.
BMW is pretty good, too. And Tavares has often said inconvenient truths. The rest will be backpedaling. So rewarding to see the likes of Mrs. Barra and the entire automotive rainbow press fail so spectacularly.
I’d like to see SixPack vs Scat Pack on a road course. Six should absolutely demolish the Scat into and through the corners thanks to what I assume to be a thousand pounds mass penalty for the EV, but given good corner exit and a long straight or two the Scat could make up the difference.
Geez. My immensely roomy and comfortable XTS, with AWD, checks in at 4200 lbs. Drop the AWD and you are down to an even 4000. The Charger weight is nuts.
BTW, I just noticed how big the thing is going to be and remembered some Jack's "what if" fiction there there was a nearly-fullsized 2015 or so Thunderbird coupe.
Well, now you have your fullsized coupe, the thing is almost as big as the 1968 Charger (2 inches shorter I think) :)
Just saying: I think it looks awesome. The Hurricane is fine, the Hemi would be even better and when the tide changes, it may well come back. Let's work on the political framework to make this possible, no?
Some of you might recall I recently bought a 23 Challenger GT RWD. Just an inexpensive, nice highway car (perfect for long road trips) for me or me and my girlfriend.
Today I am driving home and going past a school that is just letting out with police and crossing guards everywhere.
I am going super slow with the windows down and hear a bunch of little kids yelling from the sidewalk. Finally, I relaize they are yelling at me! "Rev It" they are yelling.
I am a little sorry that they think I have a Hellcat, so I lie a little and tell them I can't because of the cops. However, it gave me a smile that these little kids know what a Challenger is and are excited about a car with a big V8.
Before I got my Hemi I talked to one of the Dad’s at my kid’s acting class who had a Challenger all kitted out with factory stripes and hood scoops. Told him I loved Hemis and wanted to get one. To which he had to sheepishly admit that his was a six! Definitely fooled me. I always check the badge now!
Mine is plain jane white with the blacktop package so no poser boy. I had a 2017 Ram reg cab, rwd, blackout everything with a hemi. Put a Borla exhaust on it and had some fun, but got tired of it and decided the 3.6 was just fine. It does not mean I have let the old man in.
I mean, I'm a cheap retard who goes around buying massively depreciated, decade old luxury cars and DIYing maintenance.
Unlike all of the legacy OEs, Tesla is profitable selling something like that at 40k. Which is incidentally what you'd have paid a few years ago for a pony car that traps around the same speed.
Put another way: would you spend another 30k for better styling on the Dodge?
As far as looks I absolutely love it. I remember expressing my desire for a Challenger sedan with awkward rear doors in the vain of a 70's Dodge Monaco, and Chrysler delivered without the awkward doors. A gorgeous sheer look, a breath of fresh air after more than a decade of increasingly fast and furious angry mopars. I am extremely happy that a new big American sedan is being produced in any form, let alone this one. The coupe still has a backseat with a window!
I've owned my one plain silver Challenger since 2015, its a 2014 base model, silver, no interior gadgets, no sunroof, no bluetooth, no cameras. A former service loaner with new rear tires and front brakes. 22,500. I had "V8 is superior" thoughts when shopping for it, but I'll admit that their salesman was lucky I was standing behind the car when he fired it up, because it sounds downright scrumptous. Quiet hum up to 2000, building grumbly burble at 2500, pulley whine as you climb past 3000, then barks as it bounces off of 6500. The torque is not that linear, but your brain must be fried on Hellcat or Plaid crack to not enjoy the driving experience. I've driven a Caravan with the same power train, but 25 less horses, no dual exhaust, and front wheel drive. The Caravan understeered but didn't slouch, but all the audio character was muffled out of it. Nobody has heard this new engine yet, but I have heard Infiniti's 3.0t V6 and it sounds good, but Ford's 3.5t sounds like a fart, so bad they have to fake the engine sound. I'm hoping the target market of Dodge Chargers ridicules fake exhaust enough to make it sound decent, because they have the chops to do so. The only thing preventing this from being my next car: the cost. I don't need or want to pay for 420hp. I would love an inline six without the turbos with 300hp, the tuner crowd would probably like it too. (You can also keep the extra drive shaft).
As far as my old car, the left door is relentless dented. I had a body shop clean up done by a plow right next to the door, someone recently put a scratch through the same spot. I got rust holes in the corner of the rocker panels similar to a 2000's pickup. The last thing I had to fix on it was a leaking oil filter housing, and that was two years ago. All 4 brake calipers were replaced during different brake jobs, sway bar end links, thermostat, hood rubber weather strip. I give it more fluids than its needs, no belts, no chains, no pumps. The headers are supposed to crack, but that hasn't happened yet. I hope one of these will be my next car, but it will more likely be a last year Chrysler 300.
Bravo to Ralph Gilles and the multinational team at Stellantis, for continuing to believe in and produce new American cars.
I want one. And I want the electric one. Fuck the I6, there's no point, you either have the V8 or it might as well be electric. With 100 kWh battery, which likely means 250 mile range even at European highway speeds, and 800V architecture, which means that charging after said 250 miles will get done by the time I drink my coffee, there is basically no downside of an EV for me, and it will drive better in every way compared to the old V8 one.
Yeah, it will lack the sound. But it will also lack the ungodly thirst of the old one, which means that I can actually use it as a real daily driver. Also, it's god a hatch, which means it's useable as a family car.
Actually, I hope it flops on the US market and no one wants it on the second-hand market, because that would mean I can buy one sooner.
Sort of like how the car companies wouldn't pair the manual with the premium engine, watch people complain about how they couldn't get the stick with the V6 but choose the 6 anyway and claim "Nobody Wants Manuals!"
Truth be told, I'd be fine with a Charger coupe with a turbo I-6 and AWD. If it were engineered more like a Nissan BNR.
I guess it depends on the size of the country. In America, EVs won't fly unless you need a virtue-signaling accessoire to get from the suburb to the city and back. Downsides in Europe as well. Are you familiar with the autobahn?
With 100 kWh battery, the Charger should be able to get a real-world range of 400 km (250 miles) at normal European highway speed of 85 mph. That means 200 mile intervals between each charging after the first one (you leave home with 100%, they you typically charge to 80, because after that, it gets slower). That's a roughly 15-20 minute stop each 2.5 hours (3 hours before the first one). That's roughly equivalent to when I need to piss and have a coffee or snack.
I did 500+ miles trips with cars with smaller batteries and much slower charging.
And yes, I'm familiar with Autobahn – Dresden or Berlin are quite typical places for a trip for me, and in last couple of years, I always went there with something electric (also, Czechia has a limit of 130 km/h (80 mph), but cops typically won't even stop you for anything less than 100 mph, risk of losing your license starts at 115 or so and it's not that risky to go 120+ – real world speeds on our highways vs. Autobahns are quite similar) The downside of EVs is that you can't really go fast there, because of range. Modern non-SUV electric cars can retain reasonable range up to around 100 mph, but anything faster makes no sense over longer distances than 150 miles or so, because of charging.
On the other hand, most people don't go that fast even with ICE cars. You really need a diesel in order to be able to do this reasonably – I once made it from Czech/German border to Leipzig with and AVERAGE speed of 120 mph (basically at 155 mph limiter all the time, only slowing down for some turns and for tunnels) with an M850i. It got 9 mpg.
So the EV Charger would limit me somewhat in going fast for a really long trips, which I only do a few times a year – if I decide to pop over to Dresden to have a currywurst, I can still go 100+ mph. At the same time, it would be much cheaper to run (remember, gas is $7 a gallon here) and it will be fully charged each morning, with no need to go to gas stations.
It might be different in the US if you regularly go 300 miles or more – but then again, how often do you do that? At your highway speeds, that's what, four hour drive?
So sick of these idiotic I need to stop and pee anyway comments! First, as others have pointed, your range and charge times are wildly optimistic. Second, the idea that whenever and wherever you want to stop, they’ll be an available charger which is working and not blocked by some idiot is risible. Third, who the hell the stops on a long road trip every 200 miles for even 20 minutes? You certainly don’t do it of you want to get somewhere fast. Fourth, if you are really on a leisurely road trip then you probably want to stop and eat someplace nice and/or scenic not where someone decided to put a charger (not a Charger). Jack was right when he wrote for the insurance company that a 20 year old Tercel can you across country faster than a 100k EV.
First, as I mentioned, those are not calculations, but real-world experience. I drive EVs on European highways quite often. Also, my charge times for the Charger are PESIMISTIC. The thing's got 350 kW charging, the times I mentioned are based on Kia EV6 or Hyundai Ioniq with 250 kW charging.
Second, there are fast chargers every 60 miles or so, and typically not just one or two charge points, but more like 12 or 20. It never happened to me that Ionity (our take on Electrify America, but that one works) would not have a charger available. It happened a couple times that some off-brand charger was blocked, but it was just a matter of going to another one.
Third, I do. Also, unless I'm going REALLY far and need to recharge to the full again, the charging won't be 20 minutes, but less – if I'm going 300 miles and have range of 250, I'll only charge for another 60 or 70 miles and find a slow charger where I'm going.
Last time I took an EV6 to Berlin and couldn't be bothered to charge it fully before departing (set off with 70% battery), the time needed to recharge it enough to get to Berlin was EXACTLY the time it took my friend who went with me to go to McDonalds and get three Cheeseburgers (with nothing extra, so off-the shelf, quickest possible). The McD was maybe 50 metres from the charger. I would have to check photos (I document this stuff because of reviews), but I think i charged for maybe 8-9 minutes. Then I put it on some slow charger in downtown Berlin while we were walking around the city and going to eat, then on quick recharge on the way back, about the time it took us to go to the gas station to get coffee.
Fourth, with hyperchargers, I don't give a shit where I am as long as there's reasonably drinkable coffee and maybe something to eat. If I want to eat well, I'll find a restaurant with a 50 kW or at least AC charger, which still helps a lot, if I want to make a pleasant stop, I find some scenic place with a charger.
When I went to Croatia with the first-year Škoda Enyaq, I did two stops on Ionity chargers on the way there (on a 530 mile trip, when I did the same thing with an E39 525i two years before, I still did one of those two, so I was about half an hour faster). On the way back, I decided to replace one stop with stopping at the Lake Bled in Slovenia. It took me three hours to charge instead of 30 minutes. We spent those three hours walking around the lake and swimming in it.
Fifth, yes, if primary use of my car was going across Europe fast and often, then 540d it is. But as I spend 90% of the time on short trips, with occasional longer one (typically to a seaside holidays), the slight discomfort on longer trips is more than made up for by (much) cheaper operation and more comfort (home charging) in normal driving, plus the performance.
Love the little aside - oh, I do stop twice instead of once b/c I do a quick fast charge to get me to the slow charger. What a joke that you are touting this as the fast and convenient way to travel. Here’s an idea - stop once for 3 minutes and get 400+ miles of range!
Do you ever see more than 200 kW with any EV at all? I don't. Not in a Taycan, not in a "Mustang", not in a Kia EVx. Since we are exchanging anecdotes, I remember an extended top-speed drive in a DS3 Crossback E-Tense (not even triple-digits) that cost me as much as the same trip had, on another occasion, cost me to drive a Bentley Continental GT at the maximum possible speed, oscillating between 100 and 195 mph. I also can share that just a few months ago, I was hoping to make Frankfurt-Nuernberg (120 miles) on a single charge in a BMW i7, but since it was an angry drive, I was down to 25 per cent in Wuerzburg (half way), at which point I decided to take the scenic route instead of getting passed (and my plates recorded) by everyone I had just convinced to vacate the left lane. The scenic B8 is beautiful actually, a leisurely ride through wine country. I limped into Nuernberg with a 2 per cent charge.
Yes, with 800V cars (EV6, Ioniqs, e-tron GT, Taycan), I've seen over 200 kW at least until 30-40% SoC. Mach E has a theoretical maximum of 200 kW, i think, and think I got somewhere close to that when charging on the way to Berlin (9 minutes charging to get to the hotel).
As for the i7, I've been to Dresden and back with it, went normal highway speed (130-140 kph) on the way there, around 160 km/h on the way back and based on the consumption at that speed, it would get 300 km per charge at 160.
I have the base-model i5 next month and ID.7 the in early May – those should be interesting, I expect the i5 to get at least 400 km in highway driving (130-140).
The big question with the Charger will be efficiency – if it's at least on par with i7, which it should be, I'd expect it to hit 20-22 kWh/100 km at 130 and maybe 25-26 at 160, which would still get me to Berlin in one charge.
As for the costs – I use the Powerpass charging card from Škoda (which is actually Elli, same as used by other VW Group brands) and when I paid the 250 CZK (€10) monthly subscription, Ionity was €0.40 or something like that. Now I have the no subscription tariff (Ionity for €0.90 or so), as only brand that doesn't have charging cards for press vehicles is Škoda and I don't yet have an EV of my own, so it's not worth it. Without subscription, the trip to Croatia with Enyaq cost about the same as if I took my Jaguar XJ8. With the subscription, it would at the time (before the war and pricing surge) cost about as much as with Octavia TDI.
On the other hand, when charging at home, I will be paying something like 3 CZK (€0.12 or so) per kWh. At that rate, I can drive the Charger or the i7 for the price that even LPG-converted Audi A2 (possibly the cheapest thing to run, period) couldn't really match.
Your calculations of range, speed and charging times are exceedingly optimistic. I don't need 20 minutes for a toilet break, and the cupholder will take care of the coffee, thank you very much. EV fast charging in Europe is sometimes more expensive than gas, even now in the subsidized stage of E-Mobility. And you know well that in a V6 diesel, you can cruise all day at 110mph and still get 30+ mpg. The fact of the matter is that on the autobahn, you either get your ass handed to you by every Golf Mk3 and Opel Corsa, or you get to show off your oh-so-impressive straight-line performance and sit at a charging station every 90 minutes.
Theese are not calculation, but real world experience from actually driving electric cars on Autobahn (or on Czech highways).
Also, fast charging is not more expensive than gas – it can be similarly expensive if you don't have any charging card or have the cheapest tariff. With right one, for about $10 a month, you can get your prices down to something like €0.40 per kWh, which puts the price on par with maybe a small diesel going really slow – and about a third of what a V8 charger would cost to run.
And that's only for trips longer than 250 miles, because for those 250 miles, you have charger at home for something like €0.10/kWh. That gets you on par with Volkswagen XL1 or something like that.
Also, I don't know how much time you've spent on Autobahn, but while you CAN go 120 or 150 mph, most people go 80 even with ICE cars, because of mileage or maybe safety. I'm totally okay driving to Berlin at 80 mph without charging or at 100 mph with a stop for coffee. I have no need to hand anyone their ass, nor worry about getting my ass handed to me.
However, you are right that a good diesel IS better on Autobahn. If a had to commute from Prague to Berlin twice a week, then a 540d would be the natural choice. But I don't. I rarely go farther than Dresden or Brno, and I can do both as 110 mph with an EV as well. And for other 90% of my driving, the Charger would be vastly better than the gas version. Save for the sound, of course.
If going to Berlin at 80 mph is enough, then I recommend you buy a Dacia Sandero. No point in paying three times as much for a trash EV. You can spend the money (and time) you saved on fine dining and skip the junk food (or bugs).
I have no problem going at highway speed limit – much of the Autobahn to Berlin is restricted anyway, plus if you go on a weekday, it's hard to keep higher speeds anyway, because Autobahn is now full of idiots doing 130 km/h in the left lane. Plus it's a vast difference sitting in a Dacia Sandero and in a Charger. Plus, if it's anywhere close to ze Germans in efficiency, I can go 160.
The Hurricane, like all modern engines, LOOKS terrible. You open the hood and it's a thoughtless pile of wires and black plastic. It looks like the old liquor box I have in the garage that's full of old wiring harnesses and junk.
I just bought another Roadmaster wagon. Gold, 94, might have a hurt engine but no big deal, I have another in the garage. That makes four B-bodies in the stable. I can still get most parts and there are enough weirdos like me out there that I can get the rest of what I need. I’m prepared for our Cuban future.
The anti-EV mob here at ACF is strong, but has this right. Unless a Hemi fits, even as an after the fact crate install, this is a dead platform well beyond the single 2-4 door Charger. The curb weight is a killer, 1000-1200 lbs too much - 5900! not including the fast models added bloat. A Lightning ER is 6400, a EV9 5700. Hedging bets is one thing and applauded, but losing badly in both EV and ICE because of the tradeoffs has doomed them. The RamCharger was a good move, but wow they screwed the pooch here except for the styling. Kneel in front of your government overlords and have your heads lopped off.
A comment on warranty vs. cost of ownership/maintenance/repair. With the possible exception of hybrids, cost of ownership under the battery warranty is definitely cheaper than ICE - oils changes, differentials, brakes, timing belts, water pumps. However, those in the industry saying warranty costs are more, not surprised with recalls, battery problems, etc. TCO with the EV secondary market, even the pro-EV'ers have to admit that's a bad comp.
Apologies for interrupting the CNN-Fox EV debate, carry-on.
I've never had to change a water pump or differential; the last timing belt change was done on a Maserati after a decade of driving; even my brakes tend to last for many years. In fact, with the sole exception of oil changes (cheap, and intervals keep growing), those awesome, crushing "ICE" costs you are alluding to will pretty much begin to materialize when the average electric "car" has reached its comprehensive expiration date.
I don't know how strong the mob actually is. I bet there's a lot of interest in a task-appropriate EV.
Now, if we're talking MANDATORY EV, or having a cherished V-8 car replaced by an EV with a blown six as an option at some point in the future -- yeah, the pitchforks are coming out.
Exactly. There is a valid place for EVs. But not at the expense of all other technology, existing (oil based) or future.
In the alternate reality where the governments of the world were not forcing EV tech into the market at a rate that is completely against the market's will (and ability to absorb it), there would be nice EV options at your local Dodge dealership, which you could (have the OPTION to!) chose for your city runabout or fixed distance commuting car.
But parked in front of those battery-powered Dodges, at the front of the showroom, there would be a screaming Hellkitty Redline-Markup Widebody SRT Pinkeye Prison-Break Supercharged Demon Scat, beckoning you buy it, jump in and leave two smoking black streaks out of the parking lot and a trail of heavily burned hydrocarbons in your wake.
The valid place for EVs is microscopic as it would be devoid of any subsidies or unfairly preferential taxation. Scooters and E-bikes could be another story in high-trust cities where you don't need to drag these fire hazards into your hallway every night - i.e., nowhere.
Why is everyone so bent on the weight of the EV? No one seems to rail on the weight of model S, G80 EV or Taycan that are smaller and We've known that adding motors and a huge battery to a car adds significant weight to a vehicle, and the the case of the latter vehicles, 5-800lbs over their gas counterparts.
It might be a bit of agitation from years of hearing how large, heavy cars are KILLING US all, and endless invective directed against vehicles like my 4,467-pound Chrysler 300C, only to have the media ignore the weight of this piggy.
Or the weight of the Model S, which is heavier than your 300C and smaller. It's obvious hypocrisy even from the media, but why are we engaging in it? They never complained about Teslas weight. They extolled the virtues. They are only going to complain about weight if its from an ICE, no?
I get a kick out of how the respect the earth don't waste stuff crowd is embracing EVs, which seem to consume more of everything (particulate from heavy EVs' tires is in the news today) except gasoline.
I can remember when the green crowd made fun of "big, heavy, American cars." Now they want us to drive 3 ton sleds, well, until they find out about the tire thing and start banning EVs too. I think the ultimate goal is to ban all private motorized transportation that can't be shut off with the click of a button in Lansing, Washington, or Brussels.
I'll be interested in seeing how they price the gasoline powered Hurricane version vs the EV and if Chrysler is going to put their thumb on the scale by making the gas version more expensive. If they are price equally, I can't see the take rate on the EV to be higher than 25%.
The EV comes out first then the Hurricane after, correct? If so, it will be interesting to see the sales figures for the two staggered like that. If the EV comes out first and sells moderately well, then the Hurricane comes out and it sells better… or even if its vice versa, that will say a lot.
Either way, I would doubt the company formally known as Chrysler would put it’s thumb on the pricing scale. What would they have to gain? Isn’t the ICE Hurricane there to hedge their bets? If the Dems and Biden get dumped 2024, I reckon we can kiss all those EV and fuel economy mandates good bye. And because of the ICE Charger, Chy-lantis won’t be left with nothing but multiple month supplies of rolling piles of EV crap on the dealer lots. (As opposed to GM who you CAN kiss good bye because of choices made by the CEO)
Speaking of putting a thumb on the scale, I think it was pretty ballsy of Stellantis, back during the car shortage, to restrict deliveries of gasoline powered Jeeps to non-EV mandate states. In Calif, you could have all the Wrangler 4XE's you wanted, but the ICE version was special order only.
yeah, that's nice. It's nice to see the customer face direct consequences of what their government's been doing, within reason -- 9/11 being more than reasonable.
Exhibit A of the near-limitless power of the current government: A public corporation abandoned a product whose design and tooling was paid off decades ago, yet was still responsible for printing money nearly at a rate to make a production manager at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing envious.
And this was done "willingly" to appease, and avoid punishment from, the Powers in Charge.
Since I was scolded for numeric fallacy:
A. Is your user a reference for Ice Nine Kills? If so, rad.
B. Nobody is more sick to their stomach from EV pipe dreaming and government mandates than those living close to Lordstown, OH. All we’ve had for the past 10 years are empty promises, con men and money funneling. It’s almost like watching the White House at work in real time. Yet we have the least amount of required infrastructure directly to support it all the same.
Probably a reference to Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle, or the Grateful Dead, whose music publishing company took the name, a secondhand reference to Vonnegut. Ice Nine is a fictional crystalline form of water that causes other water to freeze.
Perhaps. “Ice Nine Kills” is a metal/core band that kinda crosses a few genres but it’s rather known for “horror metal” and general theatrical metal.
Name wise for the band your guess is as good as mine. There was even an Ice Nine FPS video game they might’ve named themselves after as a joke. As for the OP I suppose he’ll have to fill us in on his own usage.
Ice Nice Kills was the genesis of the username, which the first time I heard of them, also triggered the long forgotten Vonnegut reference from reading that book in highschool. Since I live in a place that is generally below freezing for 6 months a year, seemed fitting.
Whatever its origin, it's a good username.
Sounds like a great sci fi movie or techno thriller novel to me.
It is a scientifically proven fact (I read it in a science journal) that people using the word “ice” at the beginning of a username are smarter, more attractive to women, better looking and more successful than other people.
the dumb part is it won't even save them. the Charger and everything like it might survive an EV transition (maybe, it's possible), but they won't survive GPS-based speed limiters and that's the next requirement in the pipe
i seriously doubt this will happen; i have older cars as a standby. and how long would it take for the car fleet to transition (excuse me) to all having this feature?
You will probably be able to avoid it personally, but do you not doubt that it will become a requirement on new cars? I think they're already mostly equipped with Breathalyzers.
This was supposed to be parody.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSsUoxlSADk&pp=ygUXZHVjayBzb3VwIG1hcnggYnJvdGhlcnM%3D
Marxism: the good kind :)
https://gobacktothepast.com/abkhazia-groucho-marx-john-lennon/
The FMCSA (Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration) is already trying to foist speed restrictors on semi trucks, which has happened a while ago in Europe. If you think being stuck behind a semi who is in the left land on the Interstate for two miles is maddening now, wait till the Kenworth with the 66 mph limiter decides he doesn't want to be behind the Volvo with the 65 mph limiter.
We're already seeing this with the trucks that are governed to 80 by their fleet carriers. Lotta 81-down-the-hill-and-63-up side-by-sides.
I expect to see some trickle-down from commercial regulations into the private world.
One example: Electronic Logging Devices (ELD) are now mandatory in the USA and Canada. Commercial drivers driving over a certain distance away from home base have always had to record their daily work and rest hours, and locations traveled to, on paper logs. Commercial drivers have limits on how many hours a day/week they can drive, called Hours in Service.
The new ELDs use GPS and/or cell data to record the truck's locations. This data is currently held locally on the device (or can be transmitted back to the carrier's office), and the only time the truck cops will look at it is during an inspection, in a manner effectively no different from the truck cop reviewing your paper log. The ELD is plugged into the truck's data port (think OBD-II port, but different protocol) and also records the times the truck is moving, speed of the truck, and who knows what other parameters.
However it is a minuscule leap of technology to just stream all that data directly to the truck cops in real time. They have weigh-in-motions systems already, what's to say they can just flag the truck as it rolls by the weigh station for a HOS violation.
Some people are already plugging logging devices into their cars, helpfully provided by their insurance company, so that they can get a small discount on their insurance.
The next logical step is for the friendly state trooper to download your logging device as he has you pulled over on the side of the highway so he can see just how many times you hit triple digit speeds, and hell, how many stop signs you rolled through. Or the cops can just send you a ticket in the mail for your speeding infractions based on the data from your personal logging device.
Obviously there are lots of privacy concerns, though people seem to increasingly be willing to sacrifice privacy for the God of Safety.
This is a pipe dream, but the auto manufacturers should have told Big Government to pound sand on every EV mandate. Big Government would have then told automakers “then we’ll put you out of business” and the reply should have been “sure, go ahead, you explain to the American people why you just put a few million people out of work”.
Really stupid of the automakers not to tell Big Government “you don’t own us, WE own YOU!”
Public opinion is against the automakers in that arena. Push back against the regs and any number of GOs and NGOs will crush you with their limitless propaganda. Sadly, this has to run its course.
It is not sad. It is infuriating.
Prior to the last few years, I wouldn't have considered a Toyota or Lexus, but now Mr. Toyoda's stance it has me considering going that way, and pushing my dad to look at an IS350 to replace his S60. I just wish we got a Land Cruiser 300, as I'd probably be driving one today.
It's a very reasoned and principled stance: they can make about 50 hybrids using the resources it takes to make a single EV. And which one will save more resources in the aggregate?
BTW, you're probably talking Land Cruiser 100 or 200. The 300 is available today and is called the LX600. But that "600" does NOT mean 6 liter V-8; somewhere buried in very small print they say it's a 3.5L twin turbo V6. For $102,000.
Nope, I mean Land Cruiser 300. I didn't want to pay $80k for a used 200 in good shape. The TT V6 doesn't bother me, I bought an Expedition but would've preferred the regular Land Cruiser 300 for $80-90k. Sure I could've gotten an LX600 but going over $90k (LXs were going for $150 at the time with markup) was just way too expensive, and for how we use it the extra lux stuff on the Lexus is overkill.
Japan has no petroleum reserves of which to speak. They already are highly dependent on electricity generated with nuclear power. The country's biggest and most influential car company, Toyota, arguably the best run car company in the world, is just about the only international car company that hasn't pledged conversion to the EV religion. I think Akio may be on to something.
BMW is pretty good, too. And Tavares has often said inconvenient truths. The rest will be backpedaling. So rewarding to see the likes of Mrs. Barra and the entire automotive rainbow press fail so spectacularly.
Same thing Ford did when they dumped the Crown Vic and Ranger.
Well TBH ;
The Panther chassis wasn't selling that well apart from fleets and GRANMArquis' .
I concur with the Ranger, WTH Ford ? .
-Nate
Yeah, but every P71 they sold was almost pure profit.
Apparently not enough profit to remain in production.....
So. Cal. is loaded with ex P.D. cars and GRANMArquis' too .
-Nate
Ford easily could have slapped an awkward bulked up nose on it like the Tacoma and Frontier. It really needed wider tires though.
I’d like to see SixPack vs Scat Pack on a road course. Six should absolutely demolish the Scat into and through the corners thanks to what I assume to be a thousand pounds mass penalty for the EV, but given good corner exit and a long straight or two the Scat could make up the difference.
Geez. My immensely roomy and comfortable XTS, with AWD, checks in at 4200 lbs. Drop the AWD and you are down to an even 4000. The Charger weight is nuts.
BTW, I just noticed how big the thing is going to be and remembered some Jack's "what if" fiction there there was a nearly-fullsized 2015 or so Thunderbird coupe.
Well, now you have your fullsized coupe, the thing is almost as big as the 1968 Charger (2 inches shorter I think) :)
Just saying: I think it looks awesome. The Hurricane is fine, the Hemi would be even better and when the tide changes, it may well come back. Let's work on the political framework to make this possible, no?
Thought I couldn’t be happier that I bought a new Challenger R/T with a Tremec and then I saw this!
Have to share a cute story from today.
Some of you might recall I recently bought a 23 Challenger GT RWD. Just an inexpensive, nice highway car (perfect for long road trips) for me or me and my girlfriend.
Today I am driving home and going past a school that is just letting out with police and crossing guards everywhere.
I am going super slow with the windows down and hear a bunch of little kids yelling from the sidewalk. Finally, I relaize they are yelling at me! "Rev It" they are yelling.
I am a little sorry that they think I have a Hellcat, so I lie a little and tell them I can't because of the cops. However, it gave me a smile that these little kids know what a Challenger is and are excited about a car with a big V8.
Before I got my Hemi I talked to one of the Dad’s at my kid’s acting class who had a Challenger all kitted out with factory stripes and hood scoops. Told him I loved Hemis and wanted to get one. To which he had to sheepishly admit that his was a six! Definitely fooled me. I always check the badge now!
Mine is plain jane white with the blacktop package so no poser boy. I had a 2017 Ram reg cab, rwd, blackout everything with a hemi. Put a Borla exhaust on it and had some fun, but got tired of it and decided the 3.6 was just fine. It does not mean I have let the old man in.
See? You were right to buy it. And you'll STAY right.
Late to the party but.... This thing weighs 5800lbs..
Besides styling, why is anyone going to buy this over the upcoming Model 3 Ludacris, which should make similar power and weigh 1000lbs less?
Has musk delivered anything on time and in spec? I wouldn't hold my breath. Plus, it's a polluting, dildo shaped tech bro car. Why?
You can buy a model 3 LR today that traps around 114 for not very much money.
If bad styling completely dissuaded people from buying vehicles, panamera sales would also be 0
I guess when you got the government subsidizing it, not very much money makes sense. But what do I know, I'm poor.
I mean, I'm a cheap retard who goes around buying massively depreciated, decade old luxury cars and DIYing maintenance.
Unlike all of the legacy OEs, Tesla is profitable selling something like that at 40k. Which is incidentally what you'd have paid a few years ago for a pony car that traps around the same speed.
Put another way: would you spend another 30k for better styling on the Dodge?
Depends on your definition of profit. I wouldn't. I'd pay less than 40k on a used camaro ss 1LE and be ahead.
And I would buy a used Jag for this application, and did, but people out there are throwing utterly retarded money at new cars
As far as looks I absolutely love it. I remember expressing my desire for a Challenger sedan with awkward rear doors in the vain of a 70's Dodge Monaco, and Chrysler delivered without the awkward doors. A gorgeous sheer look, a breath of fresh air after more than a decade of increasingly fast and furious angry mopars. I am extremely happy that a new big American sedan is being produced in any form, let alone this one. The coupe still has a backseat with a window!
I've owned my one plain silver Challenger since 2015, its a 2014 base model, silver, no interior gadgets, no sunroof, no bluetooth, no cameras. A former service loaner with new rear tires and front brakes. 22,500. I had "V8 is superior" thoughts when shopping for it, but I'll admit that their salesman was lucky I was standing behind the car when he fired it up, because it sounds downright scrumptous. Quiet hum up to 2000, building grumbly burble at 2500, pulley whine as you climb past 3000, then barks as it bounces off of 6500. The torque is not that linear, but your brain must be fried on Hellcat or Plaid crack to not enjoy the driving experience. I've driven a Caravan with the same power train, but 25 less horses, no dual exhaust, and front wheel drive. The Caravan understeered but didn't slouch, but all the audio character was muffled out of it. Nobody has heard this new engine yet, but I have heard Infiniti's 3.0t V6 and it sounds good, but Ford's 3.5t sounds like a fart, so bad they have to fake the engine sound. I'm hoping the target market of Dodge Chargers ridicules fake exhaust enough to make it sound decent, because they have the chops to do so. The only thing preventing this from being my next car: the cost. I don't need or want to pay for 420hp. I would love an inline six without the turbos with 300hp, the tuner crowd would probably like it too. (You can also keep the extra drive shaft).
As far as my old car, the left door is relentless dented. I had a body shop clean up done by a plow right next to the door, someone recently put a scratch through the same spot. I got rust holes in the corner of the rocker panels similar to a 2000's pickup. The last thing I had to fix on it was a leaking oil filter housing, and that was two years ago. All 4 brake calipers were replaced during different brake jobs, sway bar end links, thermostat, hood rubber weather strip. I give it more fluids than its needs, no belts, no chains, no pumps. The headers are supposed to crack, but that hasn't happened yet. I hope one of these will be my next car, but it will more likely be a last year Chrysler 300.
Bravo to Ralph Gilles and the multinational team at Stellantis, for continuing to believe in and produce new American cars.
The (EV) spice must flow.
...Watched Dune Part 2 last night.
Okay, I'll be that guy.
I want one. And I want the electric one. Fuck the I6, there's no point, you either have the V8 or it might as well be electric. With 100 kWh battery, which likely means 250 mile range even at European highway speeds, and 800V architecture, which means that charging after said 250 miles will get done by the time I drink my coffee, there is basically no downside of an EV for me, and it will drive better in every way compared to the old V8 one.
Yeah, it will lack the sound. But it will also lack the ungodly thirst of the old one, which means that I can actually use it as a real daily driver. Also, it's god a hatch, which means it's useable as a family car.
Actually, I hope it flops on the US market and no one wants it on the second-hand market, because that would mean I can buy one sooner.
I'd be happy to help you get one overseas -- in a world of EVs, this would be an interesting one to have.
I might take you up on that one day. Or I will buy one somewhere in California, fly in and drive it to the port in NY or NJ.
I'm going to predict right now that sales of the Hurricane cars will VASTLY outnumber the EV model.
They'll be limited by regs
I think this spells the death of the car, honestly. The Hurricane cars will be priced in the ionosphere and the EVs won't leave the showroom.
It will be blamed on the "hyper-macho, problematic" styling, of course.
which makes sense because the outgoing hellcats flew off showroom floors thanks to styling as lustful and invigorating as warm milk
or was the styling perhaps not the problem and they looked cool as fuck
Sort of like how the car companies wouldn't pair the manual with the premium engine, watch people complain about how they couldn't get the stick with the V6 but choose the 6 anyway and claim "Nobody Wants Manuals!"
Truth be told, I'd be fine with a Charger coupe with a turbo I-6 and AWD. If it were engineered more like a Nissan BNR.
Should be pretty easy, they're only
*checks notes*
a whole ass Miata heavier than an R34 GTR.
I guess it depends on the size of the country. In America, EVs won't fly unless you need a virtue-signaling accessoire to get from the suburb to the city and back. Downsides in Europe as well. Are you familiar with the autobahn?
With 100 kWh battery, the Charger should be able to get a real-world range of 400 km (250 miles) at normal European highway speed of 85 mph. That means 200 mile intervals between each charging after the first one (you leave home with 100%, they you typically charge to 80, because after that, it gets slower). That's a roughly 15-20 minute stop each 2.5 hours (3 hours before the first one). That's roughly equivalent to when I need to piss and have a coffee or snack.
I did 500+ miles trips with cars with smaller batteries and much slower charging.
And yes, I'm familiar with Autobahn – Dresden or Berlin are quite typical places for a trip for me, and in last couple of years, I always went there with something electric (also, Czechia has a limit of 130 km/h (80 mph), but cops typically won't even stop you for anything less than 100 mph, risk of losing your license starts at 115 or so and it's not that risky to go 120+ – real world speeds on our highways vs. Autobahns are quite similar) The downside of EVs is that you can't really go fast there, because of range. Modern non-SUV electric cars can retain reasonable range up to around 100 mph, but anything faster makes no sense over longer distances than 150 miles or so, because of charging.
On the other hand, most people don't go that fast even with ICE cars. You really need a diesel in order to be able to do this reasonably – I once made it from Czech/German border to Leipzig with and AVERAGE speed of 120 mph (basically at 155 mph limiter all the time, only slowing down for some turns and for tunnels) with an M850i. It got 9 mpg.
So the EV Charger would limit me somewhat in going fast for a really long trips, which I only do a few times a year – if I decide to pop over to Dresden to have a currywurst, I can still go 100+ mph. At the same time, it would be much cheaper to run (remember, gas is $7 a gallon here) and it will be fully charged each morning, with no need to go to gas stations.
It might be different in the US if you regularly go 300 miles or more – but then again, how often do you do that? At your highway speeds, that's what, four hour drive?
So sick of these idiotic I need to stop and pee anyway comments! First, as others have pointed, your range and charge times are wildly optimistic. Second, the idea that whenever and wherever you want to stop, they’ll be an available charger which is working and not blocked by some idiot is risible. Third, who the hell the stops on a long road trip every 200 miles for even 20 minutes? You certainly don’t do it of you want to get somewhere fast. Fourth, if you are really on a leisurely road trip then you probably want to stop and eat someplace nice and/or scenic not where someone decided to put a charger (not a Charger). Jack was right when he wrote for the insurance company that a 20 year old Tercel can you across country faster than a 100k EV.
First, as I mentioned, those are not calculations, but real-world experience. I drive EVs on European highways quite often. Also, my charge times for the Charger are PESIMISTIC. The thing's got 350 kW charging, the times I mentioned are based on Kia EV6 or Hyundai Ioniq with 250 kW charging.
Second, there are fast chargers every 60 miles or so, and typically not just one or two charge points, but more like 12 or 20. It never happened to me that Ionity (our take on Electrify America, but that one works) would not have a charger available. It happened a couple times that some off-brand charger was blocked, but it was just a matter of going to another one.
Third, I do. Also, unless I'm going REALLY far and need to recharge to the full again, the charging won't be 20 minutes, but less – if I'm going 300 miles and have range of 250, I'll only charge for another 60 or 70 miles and find a slow charger where I'm going.
Last time I took an EV6 to Berlin and couldn't be bothered to charge it fully before departing (set off with 70% battery), the time needed to recharge it enough to get to Berlin was EXACTLY the time it took my friend who went with me to go to McDonalds and get three Cheeseburgers (with nothing extra, so off-the shelf, quickest possible). The McD was maybe 50 metres from the charger. I would have to check photos (I document this stuff because of reviews), but I think i charged for maybe 8-9 minutes. Then I put it on some slow charger in downtown Berlin while we were walking around the city and going to eat, then on quick recharge on the way back, about the time it took us to go to the gas station to get coffee.
Fourth, with hyperchargers, I don't give a shit where I am as long as there's reasonably drinkable coffee and maybe something to eat. If I want to eat well, I'll find a restaurant with a 50 kW or at least AC charger, which still helps a lot, if I want to make a pleasant stop, I find some scenic place with a charger.
When I went to Croatia with the first-year Škoda Enyaq, I did two stops on Ionity chargers on the way there (on a 530 mile trip, when I did the same thing with an E39 525i two years before, I still did one of those two, so I was about half an hour faster). On the way back, I decided to replace one stop with stopping at the Lake Bled in Slovenia. It took me three hours to charge instead of 30 minutes. We spent those three hours walking around the lake and swimming in it.
Fifth, yes, if primary use of my car was going across Europe fast and often, then 540d it is. But as I spend 90% of the time on short trips, with occasional longer one (typically to a seaside holidays), the slight discomfort on longer trips is more than made up for by (much) cheaper operation and more comfort (home charging) in normal driving, plus the performance.
Love the little aside - oh, I do stop twice instead of once b/c I do a quick fast charge to get me to the slow charger. What a joke that you are touting this as the fast and convenient way to travel. Here’s an idea - stop once for 3 minutes and get 400+ miles of range!
Do you ever see more than 200 kW with any EV at all? I don't. Not in a Taycan, not in a "Mustang", not in a Kia EVx. Since we are exchanging anecdotes, I remember an extended top-speed drive in a DS3 Crossback E-Tense (not even triple-digits) that cost me as much as the same trip had, on another occasion, cost me to drive a Bentley Continental GT at the maximum possible speed, oscillating between 100 and 195 mph. I also can share that just a few months ago, I was hoping to make Frankfurt-Nuernberg (120 miles) on a single charge in a BMW i7, but since it was an angry drive, I was down to 25 per cent in Wuerzburg (half way), at which point I decided to take the scenic route instead of getting passed (and my plates recorded) by everyone I had just convinced to vacate the left lane. The scenic B8 is beautiful actually, a leisurely ride through wine country. I limped into Nuernberg with a 2 per cent charge.
Yes, with 800V cars (EV6, Ioniqs, e-tron GT, Taycan), I've seen over 200 kW at least until 30-40% SoC. Mach E has a theoretical maximum of 200 kW, i think, and think I got somewhere close to that when charging on the way to Berlin (9 minutes charging to get to the hotel).
As for the i7, I've been to Dresden and back with it, went normal highway speed (130-140 kph) on the way there, around 160 km/h on the way back and based on the consumption at that speed, it would get 300 km per charge at 160.
I have the base-model i5 next month and ID.7 the in early May – those should be interesting, I expect the i5 to get at least 400 km in highway driving (130-140).
The big question with the Charger will be efficiency – if it's at least on par with i7, which it should be, I'd expect it to hit 20-22 kWh/100 km at 130 and maybe 25-26 at 160, which would still get me to Berlin in one charge.
As for the costs – I use the Powerpass charging card from Škoda (which is actually Elli, same as used by other VW Group brands) and when I paid the 250 CZK (€10) monthly subscription, Ionity was €0.40 or something like that. Now I have the no subscription tariff (Ionity for €0.90 or so), as only brand that doesn't have charging cards for press vehicles is Škoda and I don't yet have an EV of my own, so it's not worth it. Without subscription, the trip to Croatia with Enyaq cost about the same as if I took my Jaguar XJ8. With the subscription, it would at the time (before the war and pricing surge) cost about as much as with Octavia TDI.
On the other hand, when charging at home, I will be paying something like 3 CZK (€0.12 or so) per kWh. At that rate, I can drive the Charger or the i7 for the price that even LPG-converted Audi A2 (possibly the cheapest thing to run, period) couldn't really match.
Your calculations of range, speed and charging times are exceedingly optimistic. I don't need 20 minutes for a toilet break, and the cupholder will take care of the coffee, thank you very much. EV fast charging in Europe is sometimes more expensive than gas, even now in the subsidized stage of E-Mobility. And you know well that in a V6 diesel, you can cruise all day at 110mph and still get 30+ mpg. The fact of the matter is that on the autobahn, you either get your ass handed to you by every Golf Mk3 and Opel Corsa, or you get to show off your oh-so-impressive straight-line performance and sit at a charging station every 90 minutes.
Theese are not calculation, but real world experience from actually driving electric cars on Autobahn (or on Czech highways).
Also, fast charging is not more expensive than gas – it can be similarly expensive if you don't have any charging card or have the cheapest tariff. With right one, for about $10 a month, you can get your prices down to something like €0.40 per kWh, which puts the price on par with maybe a small diesel going really slow – and about a third of what a V8 charger would cost to run.
And that's only for trips longer than 250 miles, because for those 250 miles, you have charger at home for something like €0.10/kWh. That gets you on par with Volkswagen XL1 or something like that.
Also, I don't know how much time you've spent on Autobahn, but while you CAN go 120 or 150 mph, most people go 80 even with ICE cars, because of mileage or maybe safety. I'm totally okay driving to Berlin at 80 mph without charging or at 100 mph with a stop for coffee. I have no need to hand anyone their ass, nor worry about getting my ass handed to me.
However, you are right that a good diesel IS better on Autobahn. If a had to commute from Prague to Berlin twice a week, then a 540d would be the natural choice. But I don't. I rarely go farther than Dresden or Brno, and I can do both as 110 mph with an EV as well. And for other 90% of my driving, the Charger would be vastly better than the gas version. Save for the sound, of course.
If going to Berlin at 80 mph is enough, then I recommend you buy a Dacia Sandero. No point in paying three times as much for a trash EV. You can spend the money (and time) you saved on fine dining and skip the junk food (or bugs).
I have no problem going at highway speed limit – much of the Autobahn to Berlin is restricted anyway, plus if you go on a weekday, it's hard to keep higher speeds anyway, because Autobahn is now full of idiots doing 130 km/h in the left lane. Plus it's a vast difference sitting in a Dacia Sandero and in a Charger. Plus, if it's anywhere close to ze Germans in efficiency, I can go 160.
Fuck the EV shit. I'll take the I6 turbo. At least it talks to you before spreading your butt cheeks
The Hurricane, like all modern engines, LOOKS terrible. You open the hood and it's a thoughtless pile of wires and black plastic. It looks like the old liquor box I have in the garage that's full of old wiring harnesses and junk.
And it's probably not THAT much more likely to blow up!
I just bought another Roadmaster wagon. Gold, 94, might have a hurt engine but no big deal, I have another in the garage. That makes four B-bodies in the stable. I can still get most parts and there are enough weirdos like me out there that I can get the rest of what I need. I’m prepared for our Cuban future.
Make the "Cuban Slide" a Dance Again (not transportation policy)
Imagine having a bunch of shitty old wagons instead of the latest and greatest clean EV technology.
I'm imagining it right now
It seems great
The anti-EV mob here at ACF is strong, but has this right. Unless a Hemi fits, even as an after the fact crate install, this is a dead platform well beyond the single 2-4 door Charger. The curb weight is a killer, 1000-1200 lbs too much - 5900! not including the fast models added bloat. A Lightning ER is 6400, a EV9 5700. Hedging bets is one thing and applauded, but losing badly in both EV and ICE because of the tradeoffs has doomed them. The RamCharger was a good move, but wow they screwed the pooch here except for the styling. Kneel in front of your government overlords and have your heads lopped off.
A comment on warranty vs. cost of ownership/maintenance/repair. With the possible exception of hybrids, cost of ownership under the battery warranty is definitely cheaper than ICE - oils changes, differentials, brakes, timing belts, water pumps. However, those in the industry saying warranty costs are more, not surprised with recalls, battery problems, etc. TCO with the EV secondary market, even the pro-EV'ers have to admit that's a bad comp.
Apologies for interrupting the CNN-Fox EV debate, carry-on.
I've never had to change a water pump or differential; the last timing belt change was done on a Maserati after a decade of driving; even my brakes tend to last for many years. In fact, with the sole exception of oil changes (cheap, and intervals keep growing), those awesome, crushing "ICE" costs you are alluding to will pretty much begin to materialize when the average electric "car" has reached its comprehensive expiration date.
"We have found a witch! May we burn her?"
I don't know how strong the mob actually is. I bet there's a lot of interest in a task-appropriate EV.
Now, if we're talking MANDATORY EV, or having a cherished V-8 car replaced by an EV with a blown six as an option at some point in the future -- yeah, the pitchforks are coming out.
Damn fucking right!!
You know that the lefties want to shove the fucking golf carts right down our throats!
Any left-leaning folk on here who DON’T believe that are useful idiots!
I can imagine that the engineers had to fight tooth and nail for a six.
The future Winston, is four turbocharged cylinders stomping on a human face, but not quite forever.
*3 cylinders
Exactly. There is a valid place for EVs. But not at the expense of all other technology, existing (oil based) or future.
In the alternate reality where the governments of the world were not forcing EV tech into the market at a rate that is completely against the market's will (and ability to absorb it), there would be nice EV options at your local Dodge dealership, which you could (have the OPTION to!) chose for your city runabout or fixed distance commuting car.
But parked in front of those battery-powered Dodges, at the front of the showroom, there would be a screaming Hellkitty Redline-Markup Widebody SRT Pinkeye Prison-Break Supercharged Demon Scat, beckoning you buy it, jump in and leave two smoking black streaks out of the parking lot and a trail of heavily burned hydrocarbons in your wake.
Turboelectric, yes. Fusionelectric, yes.
Battery electric? Sure, for Club Cars and Tokyo neighborhood runabouts.
The valid place for EVs is microscopic as it would be devoid of any subsidies or unfairly preferential taxation. Scooters and E-bikes could be another story in high-trust cities where you don't need to drag these fire hazards into your hallway every night - i.e., nowhere.
Nearly poetry!
Why is everyone so bent on the weight of the EV? No one seems to rail on the weight of model S, G80 EV or Taycan that are smaller and We've known that adding motors and a huge battery to a car adds significant weight to a vehicle, and the the case of the latter vehicles, 5-800lbs over their gas counterparts.
Because three tons is verging on parody?
It might be a bit of agitation from years of hearing how large, heavy cars are KILLING US all, and endless invective directed against vehicles like my 4,467-pound Chrysler 300C, only to have the media ignore the weight of this piggy.
Or the weight of the Model S, which is heavier than your 300C and smaller. It's obvious hypocrisy even from the media, but why are we engaging in it? They never complained about Teslas weight. They extolled the virtues. They are only going to complain about weight if its from an ICE, no?
This!
This thing weighs 800 pounds more than a 1974 Chrysler Imperial Coupe.
And is twice as absurd.
I get a kick out of how the respect the earth don't waste stuff crowd is embracing EVs, which seem to consume more of everything (particulate from heavy EVs' tires is in the news today) except gasoline.
I can remember when the green crowd made fun of "big, heavy, American cars." Now they want us to drive 3 ton sleds, well, until they find out about the tire thing and start banning EVs too. I think the ultimate goal is to ban all private motorized transportation that can't be shut off with the click of a button in Lansing, Washington, or Brussels.
That IS the goal.
Oh, and notice how no one ever mocks the S-Class or A8 for weighing as much as they do?
Last time I checked, the Mercedes-Benz EQA - a GLA ruined by an electric powertrain - came in heavier than a six-cylinder S-Class.
I do, because my Jaguar XJ weighs in at 4200lbs, or 400ish lbs more than a current Z06
I'll be interested in seeing how they price the gasoline powered Hurricane version vs the EV and if Chrysler is going to put their thumb on the scale by making the gas version more expensive. If they are price equally, I can't see the take rate on the EV to be higher than 25%.
The EV comes out first then the Hurricane after, correct? If so, it will be interesting to see the sales figures for the two staggered like that. If the EV comes out first and sells moderately well, then the Hurricane comes out and it sells better… or even if its vice versa, that will say a lot.
Either way, I would doubt the company formally known as Chrysler would put it’s thumb on the pricing scale. What would they have to gain? Isn’t the ICE Hurricane there to hedge their bets? If the Dems and Biden get dumped 2024, I reckon we can kiss all those EV and fuel economy mandates good bye. And because of the ICE Charger, Chy-lantis won’t be left with nothing but multiple month supplies of rolling piles of EV crap on the dealer lots. (As opposed to GM who you CAN kiss good bye because of choices made by the CEO)
Speaking of putting a thumb on the scale, I think it was pretty ballsy of Stellantis, back during the car shortage, to restrict deliveries of gasoline powered Jeeps to non-EV mandate states. In Calif, you could have all the Wrangler 4XE's you wanted, but the ICE version was special order only.
yeah, that's nice. It's nice to see the customer face direct consequences of what their government's been doing, within reason -- 9/11 being more than reasonable.