Serious question about the legality of these and e-bikes using bike trails: Were I to make a small but powerful enough ICE or even turbine engine would I be permitted to flaunt the "no motorized vehicles" signs that usually guard the entrances of said trails? Conversely, if I had a e-"bike" that I souped up sufficiently to be able to almost silently reach highway speeds is that ok on a trail with pedestrians and pedal bikes? Near playgrounds and sports fields with little kids crossing?
Oddly enough the hikers have little fear of harrasing the Mountain bikers here .
I don't care, I can't ride one but I still think they're neat and allow more people to enjoy the trails as long as not making mess, damaging the trails and making way for those who are afoot, why not ? .
On one hand we have laws in most places having to to with the "category" of the ebike in question. I would imagine from a compatibility with other path users it is the speed that matters not the exact form factor. Additionally many bike paths have their own speed limits. There is simply no enforcement of the laws that already exist
no--50 years ago at least, they used glowplug engines that were heated with a battery until they started; then while runnung the retained heat from combustion kept it hot enough to ignite the next charge
Somebody here called EVs "displaced emissions vehicles" which is a wonderful counter to calling them zero emissions. I love the image of a "localized emissions electric vehicle". Hell, there's the name right there "LeEV" and the logo would be stupid green leaf to show how environmentally friendly it is.
There's some environmental advantage to displacing the emissions to a point source, like a big power plant. It's much easier to manage pollution from a point source than from millions of cars driving around.
As far as I'm concerned, that's the only environmental advantage to EVs. They're heavier and wear out tires faster, and the batteries are completely dependent on extractive industries, i.e. mining, drilling, and pumping (e.g. brine from salt lakes) that generally have fewer environmental controls than most industries, and I'm talking about here in the United States, let alone what kind of ecocide goes on at mines in the developing world.
Point 1-very true and it would almost be a non-issue if it were possible to build a modern nuclear power plant.
Point 2-also very true, but in keeping with the overall "people first" vibe of this website I would add that in addition to ecocide there are lots of other 'cides associated with batteries ranging from sui to geno.
If you keep your speed reasonable on an electric bike, nobody is going to notice that it’s souped up, ever. If you have a gas engine making noise, people will notice right quick.
The actual rules vary by state but are converging on allowing 20 mph ebikes, whether throttle-controlled or not, on multi-use trails. If you’re not in NY, 28 mph no-throttle ebikes are permitted in street bike lanes, but not off the street. Faster ones need to be registered and ridden as motorcycles.
Most jurisdictions have laws on this---as @MaintenanceCosts points out. Your municipal regs will vary.
That said it's 2024. Are you in a place where the law exists? Who's going to pull you over? On the trails upon which my wife and I push a stroller (in DC), we are regularly passed by e-skateboards doing 30 and e-bikes doing 40.
In my research for the article, I found a law on the books in California banning gas-powered skateboards from the use of public roads. https://archive.ph/GyZDN#selection-919.0-923.158 - It's funny to see that the schoolmarm state was alive and well even back in 1977, but then *no driver* wants 100 skateboarders having near-misses in front of their front bumper every day.
As I remember the state of skateboard tech in the 1970s, a gas powered skateboard would have been a whole new level of terrifying. And I would have desperately been in search of one if I had known such things existed.
Agreed. I did not fact check the fortune article linked in above comment, but if true, insane. A lot of those skateboards were built on very narrow rollerskate trucks.
Narrow rollerskate trucks with big wheels and little grip. My first board of my very own was in the transitional period with a wide top and narrow trucks. Within a couple years all the boards had trucks at least an inch wider.
Correct, but every board I've ever seen (gas or electric) has been rear-wheel powered if it was not powered at both axles.
I defer to the many engineers here but assume it's because the rider's bodyweight acts as wheelie-bar when the instantaneous torque of gong from 0-1 mph acts on the board. And there's less tendency to dump the rider (generally same side provides power torque and brake torque)
that might also work for this odd kind of application is a torsion bar suspension of some design as it could be made quite small and light yet thin and compact enough for a powered board
That is a much more elegant idea than the citroen style oleo pneumatic monstrosity I was trying to picture inside the deck when I woke up in the night. I was thinking about my 120lbs skateboarding friends, and my 230lbs self, and how could something work for both. It was a rabbit hole.
I spend more time on electric bikes and scooters than any other form of transportation. The e-skateboard guys still strike me as a really unique kind of crazy. Thanks for a fascinating write-up.
When I was younger we used to “bomb” down steep hills on either skateboards or longboards, I wouldn’t even consider some of those hills now. Speed wobble was a real issue and it didn’t take much more than a pebble for the board to stop abruptly and send you sailing. I hit the ground at approximately 20-25 mph and the pavement shredded my jeans and thigh skin pretty much instantly, I can't imagine coming off a motorcycle at real speed..
When I was in Seoul back in the late 2000s I came across a group of guys riding some variant of Wheelman skateboards with the ICE engines. I just went back to the photos and it's just a few snaps from February 2007, but I noticed they had a girl with them (who's riding an ICE skateboard with a more conventional layout) which immediately stuck out because I've never seen any women around here in the ebike posses that ride around. =)
Anyone ever rode one of these? Always seemed to me to be a better layout, with your feet closer to ground right in the middle of the wheel, but it probably just looks that way because I did a little snowboarding when I was in my early teens.
Born with little athletic ability and even less common sense I did the only logical thing in my teenage years when confronted with a friends 4 ft long skateboard. I hung onto the seatbelt dangling out the window of his Chevy Citation Coupe and rode that bitch like the greatest of X Games Champions, which was not yet a thing. My protective gear would have consisted of the best shorts, t-shirts, and uh, "running" shoes Kmart had to offer.
Ten or so years later I was running a pizza shop and 3 employees of mine had gone to the horse track to gamble what little money they had and enjoy the end of finals, all were students at the local University. They did very well with their bets that day and celebrated with drink. One decided to climb on top of another's car and surf while driven down the street showing off for a crowd of students. He fell, smashed open his skull, and promptly left this world. The one driving spent 5 years in jail for vehicular manslaughter and was barred from ever having a driver's license. He'd be in his late fifties now and last I heard he was a bartender in some dive down in Texas.
I think about these things every time I see a college student flying down the road on a powered board or one of those unicycle contraptions.
I'm another geezer who often wonders how any of us survived .
Completely random comment :
In the 1970's the "PIZZA MAN" (take out only bottom feed) franchise in Padaena, Ca. on the S/W corner of Walnut and you may remember, was actually a front for 'dope in a pizza box' (weed) I knew one of the heads running the place but not that it was a front at that time .
They used to give the P.P.D. pretty much all the free pizza they wanted, I don't think they ever caught on .
Of course many pizza shops are fronts for various shenanigans. I've been out of the business for a long time now but I imagine the use of credit/debit cards have put a dent in the cash laundering advantages. Way things are going shouldn't be much longer til weed delivery services are freely advertised though.
Here in La La Land (home to fruits nuts & flakes) weed delivery _IS_ advertised .
Being a Geezer I'm keen to see what it's like inside a pot shop ("dispensary") but also being a Geezer I'm also scared the P.D. is watching who comes & goes and they'd put me on some list so I don't .
Had (what I consider to be) an insane experience in Richmond a few years ago. A young man - maybe a college student - passed my wife and I on one of the hiking trails (Buttermilk trail?) adjacent to the James River on a Onewheel.
When he passed us again, I complimented him on the device and he no joke stopped, turned around, said thank you and asked me if I wanted to take it for a spin. I must have looked at him like he was insane, shocked by this level of trust for a stranger - but I accepted, took it for a spin. LOADS of fun. I only rode it for maybe a minute or two but I see the potential. Also, no speed wobble.
How fast do they go? Hows the handling at the top of the speed range?
Speed depends on the model you get. I have the Pint which tops out at around 14 mph. You can get the GT up to around 20. Range on the pint is about 10 miles whereas the GT will go 20+. Handling at speed is great once you get the hang of it, you just need to trust it to balance you out. The one thing you need to be aware of is when going fast you have to pay attention to feedback from the board, if you're going down a hill faster than the motor can keep up, it'll vibrate to let you know to back off. If you don't heed that warning, it'll nosedive and send you flying. There was actually a recall to make the vibration more apparent because people were getting absolutely wasted. Just don't be too dumb and you'll be ok!
"Could an ingenious machinist attach a lawnmower engine at the back of a skateboard to power it when a daunting hill approached? " yes, dome long ago, they didn't sell well .
"In the heyday of the automobile some years or decades past, was it apparent to us how good we had it with cars?" ~ Yes for those who can actually _think_ .
Good Dollar value IMO but certainly not ''cheap" .
I see many many E-Bikes and scooters in So. Ca. these days but I wonder of these will ever really catch on .
I think I'd love to ride one -if- I had the skills, I learned in the early 1960's that I don't to my ever lasting sorrow .
I'd think that minimum gear for these would be a helmet and gloves with good sliding palms .
My skateboarding days were in the early 1980s long before the concept of a longboard or even sealed bearings were a thing. Got my first board for Christmas one year (little brother got a unicycle that same year) when I was 11. It was my transportation of choice until I turned 16. Nothing like the thrill of doing 20+ down a hill towards a T-intersection with no brakes. Only choice was to try and make the turn which required a four wheel slide. Nothing like the stupidity of youth to make that seem like such a good idea that you'd go back up to the top of the hill to do it again. At that point in my life I would have almost killed for one of these boards.
YES
also i think i could be bothered to take a crack at that inboard pushrod suspension design thing
Please reach out to jack or dm
noted
will bug jack later
Serious question about the legality of these and e-bikes using bike trails: Were I to make a small but powerful enough ICE or even turbine engine would I be permitted to flaunt the "no motorized vehicles" signs that usually guard the entrances of said trails? Conversely, if I had a e-"bike" that I souped up sufficiently to be able to almost silently reach highway speeds is that ok on a trail with pedestrians and pedal bikes? Near playgrounds and sports fields with little kids crossing?
i mean who is going to stop you
Oddly enough the hikers have little fear of harrasing the Mountain bikers here .
I don't care, I can't ride one but I still think they're neat and allow more people to enjoy the trails as long as not making mess, damaging the trails and making way for those who are afoot, why not ? .
This is to answer Speed's Q.
-Nate
i agree entirely
On one hand we have laws in most places having to to with the "category" of the ebike in question. I would imagine from a compatibility with other path users it is the speed that matters not the exact form factor. Additionally many bike paths have their own speed limits. There is simply no enforcement of the laws that already exist
If I had the engineering skill and financial means I would love to make a diesel electric e-bike.
That sounds excellent. What is the smallest diesel you can get? One of those Yanmar sailboat diesels?
used to be a model airplane 'deezil' about .05c.i.
Aren't most small model airplane and R/C engines compression ignited and technically diesels?
no--50 years ago at least, they used glowplug engines that were heated with a battery until they started; then while runnung the retained heat from combustion kept it hot enough to ignite the next charge
whats funny is that i was asked to look into almost exactly that last night
might have to source and repurpose some kind of tiny diesel generator for the purpose
Somebody here called EVs "displaced emissions vehicles" which is a wonderful counter to calling them zero emissions. I love the image of a "localized emissions electric vehicle". Hell, there's the name right there "LeEV" and the logo would be stupid green leaf to show how environmentally friendly it is.
whoever came up with that is a clever lad
you can even tell people its eco friendly because you can run it off biodiesel
There's some environmental advantage to displacing the emissions to a point source, like a big power plant. It's much easier to manage pollution from a point source than from millions of cars driving around.
As far as I'm concerned, that's the only environmental advantage to EVs. They're heavier and wear out tires faster, and the batteries are completely dependent on extractive industries, i.e. mining, drilling, and pumping (e.g. brine from salt lakes) that generally have fewer environmental controls than most industries, and I'm talking about here in the United States, let alone what kind of ecocide goes on at mines in the developing world.
Point 1-very true and it would almost be a non-issue if it were possible to build a modern nuclear power plant.
Point 2-also very true, but in keeping with the overall "people first" vibe of this website I would add that in addition to ecocide there are lots of other 'cides associated with batteries ranging from sui to geno.
If you keep your speed reasonable on an electric bike, nobody is going to notice that it’s souped up, ever. If you have a gas engine making noise, people will notice right quick.
The actual rules vary by state but are converging on allowing 20 mph ebikes, whether throttle-controlled or not, on multi-use trails. If you’re not in NY, 28 mph no-throttle ebikes are permitted in street bike lanes, but not off the street. Faster ones need to be registered and ridden as motorcycles.
Most jurisdictions have laws on this---as @MaintenanceCosts points out. Your municipal regs will vary.
That said it's 2024. Are you in a place where the law exists? Who's going to pull you over? On the trails upon which my wife and I push a stroller (in DC), we are regularly passed by e-skateboards doing 30 and e-bikes doing 40.
In my research for the article, I found a law on the books in California banning gas-powered skateboards from the use of public roads. https://archive.ph/GyZDN#selection-919.0-923.158 - It's funny to see that the schoolmarm state was alive and well even back in 1977, but then *no driver* wants 100 skateboarders having near-misses in front of their front bumper every day.
As I remember the state of skateboard tech in the 1970s, a gas powered skateboard would have been a whole new level of terrifying. And I would have desperately been in search of one if I had known such things existed.
Agreed. I did not fact check the fortune article linked in above comment, but if true, insane. A lot of those skateboards were built on very narrow rollerskate trucks.
Narrow rollerskate trucks with big wheels and little grip. My first board of my very own was in the transitional period with a wide top and narrow trucks. Within a couple years all the boards had trucks at least an inch wider.
My understanding is pull rods are better for aero packaging.
Correct, but every board I've ever seen (gas or electric) has been rear-wheel powered if it was not powered at both axles.
I defer to the many engineers here but assume it's because the rider's bodyweight acts as wheelie-bar when the instantaneous torque of gong from 0-1 mph acts on the board. And there's less tendency to dump the rider (generally same side provides power torque and brake torque)
when done right yeah
that might also work for this odd kind of application is a torsion bar suspension of some design as it could be made quite small and light yet thin and compact enough for a powered board
That is a much more elegant idea than the citroen style oleo pneumatic monstrosity I was trying to picture inside the deck when I woke up in the night. I was thinking about my 120lbs skateboarding friends, and my 230lbs self, and how could something work for both. It was a rabbit hole.
I spend more time on electric bikes and scooters than any other form of transportation. The e-skateboard guys still strike me as a really unique kind of crazy. Thanks for a fascinating write-up.
When I was younger we used to “bomb” down steep hills on either skateboards or longboards, I wouldn’t even consider some of those hills now. Speed wobble was a real issue and it didn’t take much more than a pebble for the board to stop abruptly and send you sailing. I hit the ground at approximately 20-25 mph and the pavement shredded my jeans and thigh skin pretty much instantly, I can't imagine coming off a motorcycle at real speed..
Yep. Broke my collarbone that way. Falling off a longboard at speed is no joke.
When I was in Seoul back in the late 2000s I came across a group of guys riding some variant of Wheelman skateboards with the ICE engines. I just went back to the photos and it's just a few snaps from February 2007, but I noticed they had a girl with them (who's riding an ICE skateboard with a more conventional layout) which immediately stuck out because I've never seen any women around here in the ebike posses that ride around. =)
Anyone ever rode one of these? Always seemed to me to be a better layout, with your feet closer to ground right in the middle of the wheel, but it probably just looks that way because I did a little snowboarding when I was in my early teens.
I wish. Had to search this, haven't seen anyone riding one in years.
I'd be interested to see how they handle. It seems like the center articulates...
Born with little athletic ability and even less common sense I did the only logical thing in my teenage years when confronted with a friends 4 ft long skateboard. I hung onto the seatbelt dangling out the window of his Chevy Citation Coupe and rode that bitch like the greatest of X Games Champions, which was not yet a thing. My protective gear would have consisted of the best shorts, t-shirts, and uh, "running" shoes Kmart had to offer.
Ten or so years later I was running a pizza shop and 3 employees of mine had gone to the horse track to gamble what little money they had and enjoy the end of finals, all were students at the local University. They did very well with their bets that day and celebrated with drink. One decided to climb on top of another's car and surf while driven down the street showing off for a crowd of students. He fell, smashed open his skull, and promptly left this world. The one driving spent 5 years in jail for vehicular manslaughter and was barred from ever having a driver's license. He'd be in his late fifties now and last I heard he was a bartender in some dive down in Texas.
I think about these things every time I see a college student flying down the road on a powered board or one of those unicycle contraptions.
well now i have to find something else to do friday night
Good god that is horrific. My heart goes out to you, and those involved.
Thanx Amelius ;
I'm another geezer who often wonders how any of us survived .
Completely random comment :
In the 1970's the "PIZZA MAN" (take out only bottom feed) franchise in Padaena, Ca. on the S/W corner of Walnut and you may remember, was actually a front for 'dope in a pizza box' (weed) I knew one of the heads running the place but not that it was a front at that time .
They used to give the P.P.D. pretty much all the free pizza they wanted, I don't think they ever caught on .
-Nate
Of course many pizza shops are fronts for various shenanigans. I've been out of the business for a long time now but I imagine the use of credit/debit cards have put a dent in the cash laundering advantages. Way things are going shouldn't be much longer til weed delivery services are freely advertised though.
Here in La La Land (home to fruits nuts & flakes) weed delivery _IS_ advertised .
Being a Geezer I'm keen to see what it's like inside a pot shop ("dispensary") but also being a Geezer I'm also scared the P.D. is watching who comes & goes and they'd put me on some list so I don't .
-Nate
I don't know anything about these boards but your writing is first rate DK.
Thanks!
Nice write up. I picked up a Onewheel last year and it’s an absolute blast. Closest thing to snowboarding in the summer I could find.
Had (what I consider to be) an insane experience in Richmond a few years ago. A young man - maybe a college student - passed my wife and I on one of the hiking trails (Buttermilk trail?) adjacent to the James River on a Onewheel.
When he passed us again, I complimented him on the device and he no joke stopped, turned around, said thank you and asked me if I wanted to take it for a spin. I must have looked at him like he was insane, shocked by this level of trust for a stranger - but I accepted, took it for a spin. LOADS of fun. I only rode it for maybe a minute or two but I see the potential. Also, no speed wobble.
How fast do they go? Hows the handling at the top of the speed range?
Speed depends on the model you get. I have the Pint which tops out at around 14 mph. You can get the GT up to around 20. Range on the pint is about 10 miles whereas the GT will go 20+. Handling at speed is great once you get the hang of it, you just need to trust it to balance you out. The one thing you need to be aware of is when going fast you have to pay attention to feedback from the board, if you're going down a hill faster than the motor can keep up, it'll vibrate to let you know to back off. If you don't heed that warning, it'll nosedive and send you flying. There was actually a recall to make the vibration more apparent because people were getting absolutely wasted. Just don't be too dumb and you'll be ok!
"Could an ingenious machinist attach a lawnmower engine at the back of a skateboard to power it when a daunting hill approached? " yes, dome long ago, they didn't sell well .
"In the heyday of the automobile some years or decades past, was it apparent to us how good we had it with cars?" ~ Yes for those who can actually _think_ .
Good Dollar value IMO but certainly not ''cheap" .
I see many many E-Bikes and scooters in So. Ca. these days but I wonder of these will ever really catch on .
I think I'd love to ride one -if- I had the skills, I learned in the early 1960's that I don't to my ever lasting sorrow .
I'd think that minimum gear for these would be a helmet and gloves with good sliding palms .
-Nate
My skateboarding days were in the early 1980s long before the concept of a longboard or even sealed bearings were a thing. Got my first board for Christmas one year (little brother got a unicycle that same year) when I was 11. It was my transportation of choice until I turned 16. Nothing like the thrill of doing 20+ down a hill towards a T-intersection with no brakes. Only choice was to try and make the turn which required a four wheel slide. Nothing like the stupidity of youth to make that seem like such a good idea that you'd go back up to the top of the hill to do it again. At that point in my life I would have almost killed for one of these boards.
Thanks for the memories DK.
It's intriguing...but I'm still going for a used (maybe even vintage) enduro or dual-sport motorcycle when my bonus comes in the spring.