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Thomas Hank's avatar

We need more planes constructed around a gun. I believe I heard the A-10 will be out of service soon and it’s an absolute shame.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

I believe we have at least two Air Force officers here who would eagerly consign it to a trash heap. "The F-35 also kills tanks," one of them said to me recently.

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Thomas Hank's avatar

I don’t doubt their credibility, both officers or the aircraft. The F-35 miles ahead in the sexy department; but I can’t help loving the idea of a flying sledgehammer with a tiger face painted on the front. It’s as insulting as it is deadly.

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redlineblue's avatar

It's a "Warthog". Does the F-35 even HAVE a nickname? Cripes.

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Thomas Hank's avatar

Sure, the “WishApp F-22”…looks wise anyhow.

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AK47isthetool's avatar

Ground troops "Can we have a ground attack aircraft?""

Air Force "We have an attack aircraft at home."

The attack aircraft at home...

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redlineblue's avatar

Sir, 'Homeboy' is a *pilot* nickname.

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Dave T's avatar

The key west agreement and its consequences have been a disaster for ground troops (everyone in the Army hates the key west agreement)

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Jeff Zahorowski's avatar

The F-35 has been informally nicknamed "Fat Amy".

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Ice Age's avatar

How about "Great Personality?"

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Rich J's avatar

The last ones I saw were Arkansas Air Guard, and had the Razorback painted on them. It worked.

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Ice Age's avatar

I always hated that name. Was "T-Bolt" not insulting enough for that plane?

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Rick J's avatar

Why yes , yes it does. The "Battle Penguin"

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John Van Stry's avatar

As a former USAF officer and someone who actually worked in the defense industry on fighter aircraft, allow me to reply:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Seriously, the ONLY reason the USAF still has A-10's is SOLELY TO KEEP IT OUT OF THE HANDS OF THE MARINES.

That's it. That's the only reason.

The Air Force doesn't like flying air to mud. It's not glamorous and the fighter mafia pretty much controls the USAF. Always has. Which is why you'll never see them order another A-10, for all that it's one of the best Aircraft the USAF ever had. The F-35 isn't really a fighter, it's a ground attack aircraft. Sure, it'll do okay in a scenario where the USAF already has air superiority, but in a straight up fight against anything at an F-15 level or above, it's gonna lose 9 out of 10 times. Or more.

What the Air Force NEEDS is more F-22s

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Ice Age's avatar

The A-10 is the Most Awesome Idea in all of human history, combining the two greatest technologies ever developed:

It's a giant Gatling gun with two jet turbines welded to it.

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John Van Stry's avatar

It was also a very simple aircraft (as in low tech) and very easy to fly. Very strongly built as well.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

Yeah, it's the only Air Force plane where they regularly have female officers do flight demonstrations. Makes me think my kid could take someone's cowboy hat off their head with the top of the cockpit, inverted.

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John Van Stry's avatar

Don't knock the female pilots. While it's true there are probably now a lot of them there who got to be pilots more because of what's between their legs than what's between their ears, I've known quite a few woman pilots who were as good, if not better, than the men they flew with.

Warn your son never to dismiss women pilots out of hand. The percentage of really good women pilots is a lot higher than the percentage of woman drivers. Not sure why that is, but it is.

Course there are a lot of bad ones too, because you get cases like Revlon, where they got pushed beyond their capabilities because someone needed to check a box.

Oh, if you really want to spend some extra money, get your son into learning to fly gliders. It will make him a way better pilot and it will not go unnoticed when he goes to flight school.

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Ronnie Schreiber's avatar

Redundant hydraulic systems plus cable backup and titanium armor around the pilot make it a very survivable aircraft.

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Ronnie Schreiber's avatar

Don't forget the titanium cockpit.

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Steve Ward's avatar

Yes, its criminal that we ended the F22 line. We need a **** ton more of them.

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John Van Stry's avatar

Obama ended it. And ended it in a way to keep them from building anymore, well not easily that is.

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Jeff Zahorowski's avatar

It is criminal what Obama and others did to the F-22 program, but I wouldn't build more of them now. They are amazing, and can't be beat in a straight fight. But I think they're going to go down in history as the last and best of a breed of manned fighter that identified and killed its own targets. If we were to build more of them we would have to modernize them to network with F-35s and others. Indeed the USAF is planning to spend 11 billion to modernize about (I think) 150 of them to do just that.

Rather than ramp up large scale production of Raptors, we should put that money toward the next thing: NGAD.

https://theaviationist.com/2023/05/22/what-we-know-so-far-about-the-u-s-air-forces-next-generation-air-dominance-platform/

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Ice Age's avatar

Why are military acronyms so beige & lifeless these days and why is every new weapon a "Joint" something-or-other?

What happened to project names like Waverider or Super Nova or Skybolt or Valkyrie?

NGAD? This is what I picture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrdVrXX96LM

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John Van Stry's avatar

Networking isn't that great of an idea. Networks are easily compromised. A lot easier than people are.

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Ron's avatar

I think the idea of networking fighters is awesome. I also think that the flight crew needs to be able disable it instantly if it becomes compromised. It'll get better after facing peer competitors, but dependency of a system with this many attack vectors and degree of complexity is a very bad idea.

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Ice Age's avatar

And most people are pretty compromised to begin with!

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Hex168's avatar

How far away is the state of the art from true unmanned fighter drones? Must be easier than self-driving cars; pedestrians and deer do not have IFF. An unmanned fighter that could pull 30 G's would be pretty cool.

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Lynn W Gardner's avatar

John I was lead to believe it was the bomber pilots that ran things as Jimmy Stewart was always in the cockpit of a B-29, or B-36 or a SAC B-52…,

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John Van Stry's avatar

I think they had some say, maybe more in the 40's and possible the 50's, but from the 60's on the fighter pilots pretty much ruled.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

Soon as LeMay was shoved aside, I think.

Under LeMay, the Air Force was ruthlessly optimized to kill foreign civilians en masse.

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Ron's avatar

Which was the mission statement he was given, from before WW2 onward. I genuinely don't understand people who think he was a psychopath when he was literally doing the job he was given, and was repeatedly told that fulfilling that job was uniquely important to the nation's safety.

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Ice Age's avatar

Curtis LeMay. The Air Force's George Patton.

Once, LeMay was smoking a cigar in the cockpit when the pilot told him it could ignite fuel vapors and the plane could explode.

"It wouldn't dare!" he growled in response.

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GatorStan's avatar

Bomber Mafia by Malcolm Gladwell is a great read and covers all of this in a pretty objective manner. What galls me, a grumpy retired AF officer, is the numbers. Look at the cost of an air-hour for our “modern” fighters. Lots of hanger queens out there.

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Jim K's avatar

I'm reading "Masters of the Air" right now and it goes into a good amount of detail about how the strategic vs tactical bombing political battles played out pre and then during WWII.

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Rich J's avatar

shame they lost the tooling...

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Ice Age's avatar

Did they? We can't seem to get a straight answer on that one.

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Sam's avatar

https://youtu.be/SEbwZfkeIt8?si=rL82kBfl42XhTKsg

"sir that is not entirely accurate"

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John Van Stry's avatar

They didn't lose it, Obama ordered it destroyed.

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Speed's avatar

why in the hell would he do that

wouldnt that guarantee a limited life for the planes if the couldnt reproduce parts

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John Van Stry's avatar

To keep them from building anymore without spending another billion dollars. This will prevent the government from every passing a bill to build more.

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sgeffe's avatar

Speaking of psychopaths! 🙄

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calm's avatar

Out of the hands of the Marines AND the Army.

One of my army flight school IPs told me A-10s were transferred to the Army and parked on Cairns Field at Ft Rucker right before Gulf War 1. Then that happened, the planes left, and were never seen again.

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Dave T's avatar

Key west agreement strikes again! There isn’t an Army pilot who wouldn’t fly an A-10 in a heartbeat…

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calm's avatar

Not any cool one, at least

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AK47isthetool's avatar

I seem to recall the B-117 being mis-designated as well.

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John Van Stry's avatar

Same for the F-111 and quite a few other aircraft out there as well.

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AK47isthetool's avatar

Given the zaftig shape I am surprised they didn't call the Bone an F.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

Edit: THREE, including Van Stry

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Ice Age's avatar

The Air Force doesn't want the CAS mission, but it doesn't want any other branch to have ANY aircraft.

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Ronnie Schreiber's avatar

I wonder if Army and Marines personnel feel the same way.

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Ice Age's avatar

The Army and Marines would be HAPPY to take the A-10 fleet of the Air Force's ungrateful hands.

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Harry's avatar

I have been contemplating the demise of the A-10 recently, as they have been overflying my house at an altitude above my side of the Ridgeline but we'll below the mountain the forms the other side of my steep narrow valley.

They look so vulnerable that with forewarning I think my neighbors and I could pose as a credible threat. It helps a few of my neighbors have class 3 ffls.

On the other hand, a few weeks or months into any conflict after air supremacy is achieved and within a reasonable distance of a fluid front line, I can't imagine a thing that will ruin some poor bad guy company commanders day more than a flight of those guys fucking shit up.

So make more and try not to get all the pilots killed in the first 45 days is my position them.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

I don't think it's all that vulnerable to small-arms fire, truth be told. MANPADS a different thing of course.

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Harry's avatar

For the record, I don't think he keeps it at his house here, but I do think automatic .50bmg is a threat to anything that flies. But yes my premise for the A-10s effectiveness on a battlefield with degraded air defenses is that spraying 5.56 to 7.62 shouldered assault rifles against them while they maneuver is pointless.

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Josh Arakes's avatar

When it comes to small arms fire, we do talk about golden BBs which can take you out your aircraft out. However, I was always glad when I could see the muzzle fire when I was at low altitude because I knew my jet would be gone before the bullets arrived. It was the muzzle flashes you didn't see that you had to be worried about.

And MANPADS, as Jack said, were always a concern.

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Ronnie Schreiber's avatar

This A-10 was shot up pretty badly and the pilot still made it back safely because of the redundant control systems: https://warthognews.blogspot.com/2011/07/from-archives-oif-story-of-killer-chick.html

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Ronnie Schreiber's avatar

Every now and then you'll see an A-10 or two over the Detroit area. There's still an ANG squadron of them based at Selfridge.

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sgeffe's avatar

They got rid of the F-16s for those, right?

Do they still fly C-130s out of there?

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Ice Age's avatar

Yeah. Air support for cops and ambulances.

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dejal's avatar

Used to have them at the local ANG base. When they flew over you could tell if they were picking their nose.

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Steve Ward's avatar

The only way an F35 is going to kill a tank is if it crashes into it. It wasn't designed for that mission, as the USAF hates the ground support mission.

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Speed's avatar

"can it use stealth"

bro you can look up and see it and its engines and huge ass gun are the opposite of quiet

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Ron's avatar

The primary flaw of the A-10 is that it was designed for a 1970's battlespace, which makes it a shockingly fragile target in 2024. The SU-25, built as a direct A-10 competitor and being flown by both sides in Ukraine, is suffering catastrophic losses.

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gt's avatar

Came here to post this. Things that work in Ukraine are drones and glide bombs/missiles launched out of range of air defense. To think that A-10s could show up there and light up tanks with their 30mm gun they way they do Hiluxes in Afghanistan is simply foolish. Russia had good luck using their KA52s to knock out armor during the Ukrainian 2023 counteroffensive, by staying at very low altitude and that was at a standoff distance of 7-10km as I recall.

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Speed's avatar

we gotta figure out how to make battleship cannons fly

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Josh Arakes's avatar

AC-130 Gunship has a 105mm howitzer on board. Not quite battleship cannon status but still awesome.

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Speed's avatar

think there was a b29 or b17 that had a sherman tank main gun in it

a silly idea and it was awesome

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Speed's avatar

thats what it was

so much gun on one plane

magnificent

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Ronnie Schreiber's avatar

The howitzer on the AC-130 is way cool, but I think the way it can fill a football field sized area with vaporizing machine gun fire as it circles the target is probably scarier to the bad guys.

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Ice Age's avatar

They're not even trying with the AC-130s anymore. What does this thing have, like TWO guns on it?

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/467756/ac-130j-ghostrider/

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Rich J's avatar

Bullets are so passe when you can spend ludicrous amounts on bombs and missiles. The fear those things produce, though--the sound is unreal from the ground, terrifying even if you know they are on your side. That said, the J model, at its most basic, is easily the equal of the combat talons, with longer on-station time and better performance. A big ass laser might be nice....

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Ice Age's avatar

NOTHING satisfies like a direct line-of-sight kinetic kill. Certainly not a "smart bomb" strike or missile up some jihadi's ass.

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Thomas Hank's avatar

And call it the A-12 Dreadnought

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Mr Furious's avatar

My uncle flew A-10s in the ANG, and I got to watch them take target practice as a young teen. Just about the coolest thing I’ve ever seen. Will always have a soft spot for The Warthog.

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Steve Ward's avatar

WTF have we not pulled all of the mothballed excess A-10s out of storage in Davis-Monthan, fixed them up, and sent them off to Ukraine??? Its just beyond stupid.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

I think it contains a little bit of tech that we don't want to immediately donate to Russia, maybe related to titanium fabrication?

Given the rate at which Frogfeet get taken out in that theater, I'm thinking the A-10 would be short-lived.

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Steve Ward's avatar

Short lived, maybe, but better than sitting in the AZ desert.

Ti fabrication? Where do you think a lot of our Ti has come from in the past? from scrapped Soviet submarines with Ti hulls!

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Jack Baruth's avatar

The only reason I think that is because it's supposedly why they put fake "hollywood" edges on every displayed F-117...

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silentsod's avatar

Enlighten us please

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Thomas Hank's avatar

I just got a vision of an F-117 with yellow splitter guards lol

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Jack Baruth's avatar

The F-117 control surfaces and nose are still classified. So when you see one on display, it has fake stuff on it.

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Ronnie Schreiber's avatar

If I recall correctly, the Soviets had trouble making titanium alloys and they didn't have the welding tech to properly weld titanium. That tech was under rigid export controls.

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KoR's avatar

Going purely off memory, but depleted uranium is used somewhere in the A-10 isn’t it? At least it’s what the gun shoots I think?

That stuff isn’t typically something we have ever given up. Even the Abrams sent to Ukraine had to be export models without the DU armor.

That said, Tom Clancy would be cumming in his grave if there was a fleet of previously-mothballed A10s chasing down Russian partisans

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Donkey Konger's avatar

Seems safe to assume he's doing that regardless.

𝘗𝘢𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘵 𝘎𝘢𝘮𝘦𝘴 reads like self-defense home-invasion porn. Not a good look for someone who wrote about nothing *except* violence

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Ice Age's avatar

Hasn't Ukraine gotten enough of our treasure and hardware yet?

Let them fight their own war.

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Steve Ward's avatar

i was referring to a/c sitting in the AZ desert collecting dust and scorpions

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Ice Age's avatar

Fair enough, but why are we arming those ingrates in the first place?

Zelensky shows up in OUR Congress and doesn't even say "Thank You" for all that sweet cash and hardware that same Congress doesn't want AMERICAN civilians getting their hands on.

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MD Streeter's avatar

A congress that will lovingly wave the Ukraine flag en masse, but some members get the vapors about ours...

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Henry C.'s avatar

That guy has a desperate polonium deficiency.

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Glen Gray's avatar

I think the US is the reason Russia went into Ukraine.

You guys made a comedian their President then he zgreed to put nukes on the border of Russia.

What would the US do if Russia put nukes in Mexico?

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Ice Age's avatar

Would they keep the illegals in Mexico to make room for the nukes?

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Donkey Konger's avatar

Mearshimer and other bright lights attest to this.

Everyone on the uniparty and on the "bomb putler!" left refuses to acknowledge the truth you've just succinctly described

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Adam's avatar

Mearshimer is a dipshit

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Donkey Konger's avatar

🤣🤣🤣

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Keith's avatar

It’s the CIAs war, start to whatever the finish is

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Ron's avatar

Ukraine doesn't want them. The SU-25 was built in the same era as the A-10 and it's taken more losses, to both sides, than any other airframe except the Ukrainian Mig-29's (which faced crushing odds in the opening weeks). The A-10 cannot survive in a modern air combat environment over a period long enough to justify losing the pilot - and you're going to lose the vast majority of the pilots. A zero/zero ejection seat doesn't help if you're maneuvering violently enough that the seat is pointed at the ground when it leaves the bird.

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Hex168's avatar

My understanding is that the A-10 is for use after obtaining air superiority. I've read that follow-on designs were planned to have survivability in an environment with surface-to-air missiles, although that must be an ongoing race in which the plane designers are handicapped.

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gt's avatar

Because they'd be flying coffins. Then again the US seems to be making a concerted effort to get as many Ukrainians killed as possible, so maybe that idea does make sense after all.

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Henry C.'s avatar

Mothballing the A10 and pushing the F35 says a lot about the modern military industrial complex.

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Ice Age's avatar

And none of it good.

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Jeff Zahorowski's avatar

I love the A-10, and it is very cool, but its time for it to go. Finding and killing enemies is better done when you are better at gathering and distributing information than your enemy. The A-10 is like a .357 Magnum snub-nosed revolver. Powerful, cool, and unsubtle. It's brutishness is a big part of it's appeal. But it has to get in someone's face to kill them. Again, cool, but impractical in a world bristling with everything from S-400 SAMs to MANPADS.

Fat Amy (the F-35) is an expert at slipping in quietly, sharing intel, then killing the enemy before they know she's around. Think ninja assassin. Cool, but in a different way.

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Speed's avatar

counterpoint

BRRRRRRRRRRRT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvIJvPj_pjE

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Ice Age's avatar

But can't hack a standup fight like a proper fighter.

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Rich J's avatar

It's already been pulled at least once and largely relegated to reserve / Air Nat'l Guard service, and I still ran across them with some regularity while deployed (last trip away was in 2017). Might end up being like the B52, C130, CH/MH53, CH/MH47, and develop that longevity that something truly irreplaceable achieves, constantly evolving instead of being replaced (vis C27, most of which went directly into storage after completion). Also, money....

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Donkey Konger's avatar

Another cool feature:

my army buddies tell me (IIRC) danger close with the A-10 is 150 yards versus 300 with something like an abrams.

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Ice Age's avatar

See, the A-10 can fire just over friendlies' heads to kill whatever's bothering them.

The F-35's bombs are a threat to everything within 300 yards.

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Sherman McCoy's avatar

The facelift 911 GTS is VERY expensive, which means the GT3 will probably start north of $200K (992.1 GT3 was ~$163K MSRP in its first year of production).

I wouldn’t have a philosophical problem with owning the hybrid 911, but I wouldn’t expect it to be a long-term ownership proposition, as these will depreciate like lead balloons.

The hybrid is impressive from a technical standpoint - it’s basically like the MGU-H on a Formula 1 car. There is no EV only range; it’s purely a performance EV (like the LaFerrari).

There is no manual available in conjunction with the hybrid.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

'The hybrid is impressive from a technical standpoint - it’s basically like the MGU-H on a Formula 1 car. There is no EV only range; it’s purely a performance EV (like the 2005 Accord Hybrid V6).'

FTFY

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Sherman McCoy's avatar

You can criticize the brand for cynical market segmentation, tone deaf marketing, rapacious dealers, autistic fanbase, disregard for long term value / serviceability, etc.

Hard to criticize the quality of the product itself, however.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

Come back to me on this one in ten years and let's talk.

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Glen Gray's avatar

I agree. The same can be said for that Mercedes AMG C63 that uses a hybrid 2.0 Litre 4 cylinder and battery pack with an electric turbocharger that weighs as much as Pittsburgh (4749 lbs). This car will not be able to be driven, repaired or enjoyed since the sound it makes is a German weasel sucking up to a Chinaman.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

"This car will not be able to be driven, repaired or enjoyed since the sound it makes is a German weasel sucking up to a Chinaman."

COTD

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MD Streeter's avatar

A C-class that weighs more than my wife's CX-9. Ludicrous.

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redlineblue's avatar

I can't be the only one getting tired of relying on that distinction, though.

By now the C8/Corvette-stereotype platter is looking like a solid upgrade except that 1) I cant afford it yet and 2) I have a 996, which of course is 'not a real Porsche', which of course is turning into a compliment.

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Glen Gray's avatar

Take a look at all the problems new Corvettes are having with the transmission. Even the Z06. The New Balance crowd are getting a lesson in how much GM cares once they have your money.

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redlineblue's avatar

After 3 911s, ‘No factory reach-around’ is nothing new. By the time I can swing the CPO-ish one I want, my elders will have self-funded the transmission beta-testing. Solved units in the crate will cost less than the steering rack now going into my 75k mile pampered basher,

I haven’t had an NA V8 since I was in high school or a Chevy Corvette ever.

And you heard Harambe yesterday just like I did: We’re burning daylight here.

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Colin's avatar

I quite enjoyed my 996. Don't be ashamed!

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redlineblue's avatar

Yeah, if I sounded that way I regret it. I’ve had and am having a blast with that thing. I had a 911T in a weird color, totaled before anyone said stuff like “aubergine long-hood”. My 3.2 was this weird Audi blue, ate a valve and then “PTS” became a MNC.

Pretend they’re cars. Mainly for driving places. Now:

Take a 993 coupe. ADD Power, torque, a shit-ton of body stiffness, comfort, serviceability, and (the horror) ergonomics. SUBTRACT: some weight, rOunD heAdliGhts, (okay, okay, dry sump oiling), any any shred of concours cred.

Rich boomers and their pecksniffing are the only way someone like me gets one 911, never mind 3. Unabashed throughout.

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Boom's avatar

This is a purely bad faith argument. They'll have warranty, but they do quality better than almost everyone in this class of vehicle.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

Is there anything else left in the 911 class, which is basically defined as

"sub-Corvette performance for 2x Corvette price"?

I guess the BMW 6 Series and maybe the Benz SL?

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Boom's avatar

Actually you're absolutely right, it's a class of one... But they do better than the Merc and the BMW and also everything above their class.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

The last three new Porsches that I drove on any frequent basis were all quality nightmares -- but they were also all trucks. I can't help but think that the vaunted Porsche quality advantage really just equates to fewer miles driven, which is why Porsche sports cars continually ace JD Power while the trucks and sedans suffer.

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Boom's avatar

That goes 100x for anything else in its class or above and includes the Corvettes.

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Boom's avatar

So you realistically drove badge engineered Audis. No surprises at the experience there..

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Andy's avatar

My experience has been very different, but I've only had the sports cars. My 2012 Cayman has needed one new shock and a TPMS module sensor in the 7 years I've owned it, other than consumable brakes. The 2016 Cayman GTS needed literally nothing, sold it with 12,000 miles. The 2019 911 and 2022 Boxster no problem at all. Granted very low miles on the 911 and now the Boxster, but in my experience, if stuff goes wrong it goes wrong fast.

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Sherman McCoy's avatar

The Benz SL now LOOKS like a 992 911 from the rear end, as well.

Merc PR and the “journalists” can dress it up however they like, but the decision to twin the SL and the AMG GT is unsatisfactory. The AMG GT 2.0 is more like a C Class coupe with a body kit than it is an Aston DB12 or Ferrari Roma competitor (it weighs 4,300+ lbs now).

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Speed's avatar

i do get a kick out of how theyve integrated that hybrid system but what the hell was the actual point because it seems like it was all performative emissions nonsense

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Sherman McCoy's avatar

There probably wasn’t a point - ars gratia artis!

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Speed's avatar

yeah youve got a point

germans left to their own devices

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Boom's avatar

There was a point, the more I think about it the more I realise this press release was for first to the market with F1/lmp1 tech bragging rights.

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Sherman McCoy's avatar

The same brand that promotes DRS on its GT3 RS is stealing F1 valor again!

Pathetic!

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Boom's avatar

I mean depends on whether you're an actual engineer and consider putting experimental shit into a production series with some proven durability a real challenge or not.

Some would say it's 100x more difficult than making something to last a few hundred hours in very controlled circumstances.

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Sherman McCoy's avatar

Here’s some more 10+ year old Baruthian prophecy:

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/03/avoidable-contact-this-geneva-convention-was-torture-for-enthusiasts/

“Start with the reprehensible new 991-generation 911 GT3. The press is experiencing a collective aneurysm regarding the mandatory PDK, and well they should. The excuse given by the truck-builders at Stuttgart that PDK is faster around a racetrack doesn’t wash. Nobody buys a GT3 to go quickly around a racetrack, unless they are suffering from dementia. The list of cars that will handily embarrass a GT3 around a racetrack includes:

-Pretty much every $15,000 dedicated race car ever, including those ones with the V-twin snowmobile engines

-Fox Mustangs with big wings on them

-The Nissan GT-R

-A little thing that Americans like to call the CORVETTE Z06

Vipers

-and many more!

GT3s are purchased for two reasons. One, they’re fun to drive, so the mandatory PDK in the new one kind of stabs that in the proverbial ball sack. Two, they have traditionally had the old, hyper-durable, GT1-based engine. The new GT3 makes do with an uprated version of the new-gen boxer which makes great numbers in the current 991 but has yet to prove itself as a lasting proposition. This is good news for anybody who owns a 997 GT3: you probably just joined me and my 993 in the Land Where Depreciation No Longer Applies In Any Meaningful Sense. Congratulations. I’ll see you at the next PCA open house. Remember, when you see a Z06 behind you, be sure to wave him by with disdain. We’re told that the new motor makes up for its dirt-cheap construction and totally plebian roots by having all sorts of titanium and whatnot in it. As an experienced Porsche owner, I read that as a warning rendered in sixty-foot tall neon-lit letters, and the text of the warning is

HOLY SHIT THIS IS GONNA COST MONEY WHEN IT SUFFERS FROM SOME WEIRD ENGINE FAILURE THAT SOMEHOW NEVER AFFECTED ANY GENERATION OF THE GEO METRO

The banners flapping proudly in front of Porsche’s corporate headquarters will be cut down and cunningly fashioned into clothing for puppets acting in plays that will re-enact the shame and humiliation involved in telling your Viper-owning neighbor why your titanium-coated titanium rods didn’t make it to the ten-thousand-mile mark. Let’s not even discuss the electronic rear-steer, which is something even the Japanese couldn’t make work reliably and is therefore an almost certain bet to be disconnected and/or removed by the Porschephiles unlucky enough to be unable to afford a 997 GT3 instead of this contraption fifteen years from now.”

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Donkey Konger's avatar

Perhaps one of the engineers in the forum can advise, but I've always wondered why the germans keep doubling down (octupling down) on unrepairability. Hot bank turbos, valve timing chains at engine rear were the least worst of it... in 2003.

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Sherman McCoy's avatar

When I read this 12 years ago…

“ Modern Porsches, just like the Hublot Big Bangs and their ilk, are ephemeral. Fleeting. Fake. Faux. Luxury. Junk. The pleasure of purchase is all you get. After that it’s a full-tilt rush to buy the next thing. Their Eloi owners won’t think about the Morlocks who own, maintain, race, and enjoy old Porsches. We don’t exist to them. They are simply chasing the next brightest thing. An unfixable watch, worn to a meaningless meeting and left in a disposable “luxury” car. We know it’s luxury because they tell us so, with every press release, with every five-star hotel used for the first drive, with every Chinese-sewn-junk branded polo shirt left on the hotel bed.

The old Porsches, the old Mercedes-Benzes, they had some integrity, some value for the Morlocks, for the third owners, for the hobbyists. They endured. They were like old Rolexes; expensive to run but durable by design. That’s no longer desired, if it ever was. Today’s “luxury” car is just like today’s “luxury” watch. The value of the thing is the price, the presence, the heavy flame-surfaced tank-like offensiveness of an X6 imposing your prosperity on your neighbor’s fragile psyche like a heavy gold chain worn around one’s neck a thousand years ago.”

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/avoidable-contact-the-watery-big-bang-the-32-step-power-steering-fluid-check-disposable-faux-ury/

…it didn’t really resonate with me. At the time, I didn’t have much of an understanding of the “Eloi” psychology.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now!

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Donkey Konger's avatar

It was prophetic.

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Boom's avatar

Their assumption is that the customer DOES NOT do any of their own work. That is the only way to make it make sense. Also, money is no object, so sinking 1/3rd of the car's worth in maintenance in a year does not scare them off.

I don't agree with it, BUT, its also not ALL BAD. In my PERSONAL experience, the typical AMERICAN owner of some of these cars is a car poor idiot, who doesn't follow the service schedule and lets things get out of control.

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Speed's avatar

your second paragraph reminded me of reading about a boomer couple complaing that their new camaro needed new tires after 7000miles

it was a zl1 on 40 treadwear tires

care and feeding can get pretty dear for some cars

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Donkey Konger's avatar

My issue is even the shops where they train their own manufacturer branded mechanics sometimes have hard times getting the work done. Example, this mercedes AMG engine tale starts at a dealership unable to complete a repair: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15FIY9XHJA0

I could come up with more examples but you get the point. The cars used to be serviceable for decades (W126), then about six years (E39), now (B9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXwU_hwPOjo ) they can't even be serviced in the immediate warranty period. Doesn't make sense to me

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Boom's avatar

Don't hire 60 IQ techs for German car dealerships.. I think though it might indirectly result in some lawsuits equal opportunity...

These are meant to be 'exotic' vehicles, that require some specialty tools. Anybody with a higher than room temp IQ should be able to do it the rest of the way..

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Donkey Konger's avatar

Stipulated, I'm less talking about the techs, more about underlying supply chains and parts availability.

As an example I'll reiterate the story of my buddy's GLS 450, which got rear-ended and has been sitting in a dealer service storage parking spot for what must be six months or a year now, awaiting some exhaust parts. It's a less than 6 year old car.

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Boom's avatar

I can't contest that.. shame on the manufacturer and suppliers..

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Jeff Madson's avatar

I have a GLE400 and messed up the front bumper. Went to a body shop and the guy came out, took one look, and said sorry I won't work on Mercedes. Their supply chain is too dysfunctional. Try the dealer body shop.

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Sherman McCoy's avatar

Most people buying new ~$200k (go look at the

configurator!) performance cars are not doing their own maintenance.

I never have and never will.

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Speed's avatar

im not even sure what you can do yourself on some of them except maybe replace the pads and rotors

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S2kChris's avatar

Which means that the third customer who needs to do his own maintenance to afford the thing will not be able to own it. Rendering it near worthless in the long run.

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Sherman McCoy's avatar

That tertiary / subsequent customer is “worthless” to Porsche because (1) they don’t buy new cars from Porsche dealers, (2) they don’t service their old cars at Porsche dealers.

The guy who bought it new and took a six figure hit on it in three years doesn’t care either, because he’s picking up his NEW 911 when he drops the old one off.

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S2kChris's avatar

True, but the counter is that right now if you buy certain new Porsche sports cars and drive it sparingly you can get out of it for 95%+ of what you have in it a few years later. If the cars become bricks after 10 years, that resale will end or diminish greatly, which in a rational market will decrease new buys because rather than costing you $20k to swap into a new 911 from your old one, it will be $100k, and that’s a huge difference.

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Donkey Konger's avatar

Jack *also* did an article about this that I wish I could find.

IIRC the article argues that Mercedes should buy back all of the S Class cars at X0,000 mileage such that *whenever* you saw someone in an S Class you *knew* they paid full freight as there was no other option. "Lease with no buyout option" contract.

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Sherman McCoy's avatar

In a sense, the third owner of the 10-15 year old 911 - the Porsche enthusiast who waited patiently until what he wanted intersected with what he could afford - is in the same boat as the third (or fourth or fifth) owner of the 10-15 year old S Class.

They are simply not part of the marque’s considerations when developing the car.

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Nplus1's avatar

That likely is a fair assumption for the first owners who, as you noted, also may not be paying someone else to do it! Third owners are not customers. Anyway, those people will still probably say Porsches are good after yet another engine rebuild in order to stay in the club.

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Boom's avatar

And as long as this setup works, I don't get Jack's desire to not call something good good.

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danio's avatar

When regular people talk about Planned Obsolescence in the automotive industry, it's typically bullshit. As someone within the industry, my only concession to it is German Engineering. It ensures poor people can't be seen in your brand, for long anyway. Protects the health of the brand. Pontiac might still be around if Bonnevilles didn't last decades in the hands of the types of people typical Porsche owners despise.

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Ice Age's avatar

The Z28 and Trans Am are a cautionary tale of what happens when you make your vehicles too accessible.

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Robert Shelton's avatar

I loved Lewis blaming his team for not telling him to go “Hammer Time,” after his pit stop ahead of Verstappen. Who knows, maybe Toto thought he didn’t have to explain the concept of the undercut to a man with multiple World Championships.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

"This guy can only start and drive in first."

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Boom's avatar

And soon bring a whole demographic of pimps and thugs into the Ferrari customer base.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

Something tells me Sir Lewis has the whitest demographic in the Formula 1 fanbase. The brothers seem to prefer Max, at least in the USA.

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MD Streeter's avatar

Max has a bitchin' EDM theme song.

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silentsod's avatar

The love of (? Belief in) complexity and fragility for miniscule gains is mind-boggling.

Tech is nice and also we should ask, "what about when this fails?" The maintenance of complex systems is itself a weakness because of human and technological capital requirements.

Anyway, MotoGP at Catalan was knives out hard fighting. Jorge Martin and Marquez each had qualifying woes and gridded 7th and 14th. Bagnaia qualified front row with Aleix Espargo and Raul Fernandez. Pedro Acosta was in the second row to start.

The sprint race start went great for Bagnaia and poorly for Martin who made up no ground. Raul Fernandez quickly took the lead only to crash out shortly after. Binder would take the lead and crash out. Then Bagnaia took and held the lead. Marquez' start was brilliant and he slid up the standings quickly. Smart racing against Pedro Acosta led to him fighting for the podiu.. Aleix found pace and regrouped well enough to hold second place for most of the sprint.

In the last lap Bagnaia crashes out of the lead. Aleix wins, Marquez goes 14th to second, Acosta podiums in third, and Jorge Martin puts more points on Bagnaia with a fourth.

In the race Martin had a better start and was able to work his way toward the front and fight against Bagnaia who slackened pace a bit but returned to form and managed his tires (without the pressure to make up places) better to overtake Martin at the end of the race and cruise to victory. Marquez would against put up a showcase of tire management and aggressiveness to finish third behind Martin and just ahead of Aleix. Acosta crashed out and rejoined and was still able to make the points.

Honda looks abysmal. All of them.

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Speed's avatar

im not sure its love or belief in complexity but a necessity by the ever stricter imposed regulations

sure there might be engineers who like the challenge but id be willing to bet if they had carte blanche to design it as they saw fit for the purpose you would have a simpler lighter and more cost effective solution

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Boom's avatar

Nobody wants to do this, they're being forced to. Direct your ire elsewhere.

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Speed's avatar

thats what i mean

theyre being constrained by regulations

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tinman93's avatar

“ Tech is nice and also we should ask, "what about when this fails?" The maintenance of complex systems is itself a weakness because of human and technological capital requirements.”

The (relative) lack of tech in my current fleet is a selling point. It’s why I intend to maintain and drive them as long as possible.

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David Florida's avatar

“Wanted: the nicest available 1968 Chevy C10 with 250 cube six. Promise it will be well treated!”

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Speed's avatar

you can at least put a smallblock in it

you dont have to toil in the slow lane forever

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David Florida's avatar

Not the point, but if the six is an objection then make it a GMC C-20 instead, and enjoy the big block!

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Mozzie's avatar

The hybrid's curb weight is a few dudes shy of a minivan's.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

Lucky than 911 drivers rarely have friends, then! *

* yes, I owned a 911 for 20 years

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Colin's avatar

But you have all of us!

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Jack Baruth's avatar

I think you all just feel sorry for me. It's alright! I ACCEPT YOUR PITY

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MD Streeter's avatar

My CX-5 is lighter.

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Gianni's avatar

My first decent car out of college was a 1987 CRX-Si. It weighed 1,953 lbs. according to its spec sheet.

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MD Streeter's avatar

My friend in high school (we were class of '99) had a '90 or '91 CRX, don't recall if it was an Si. Great little car.

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Acd's avatar

This new 911 Hybrid Whatever-the-F**k-It-Is weighs about the same as a 1985 Chevrolet Caprice. At this point in my life I'd rather have the Caprice.

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April's avatar

Give me half a dozen A10's (and crew) and I will be Empress of Canada in less than a week.

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Speed's avatar

youre acting like its hard or something

you could run as someone who actually cares about canada and get elected immediately

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Sir Morris Leyland's avatar

If Trudeau allows another election.

His family tradition is to leave office only at the brink of death by old age.

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Speed's avatar

if he takes after his father hes going to be stunningly resistant to assassinations

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MD Streeter's avatar

I once saw in a movie that Cuba has DNA clinics that extend the lives of their dear leaders.

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Ice Age's avatar

We spend more on ONE Ford-class carrier than Canada spends on its whole military.

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April's avatar

Yes, I believe we have between one and four running Leopard tanks. Number could be less than one.

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Ice Age's avatar

What I wrote wasn't a boast.

I'm frankly appalled that one ship should cost that much.

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Rich J's avatar

In addition to the appalling cost, modern weapons will likely give it a very short effective combat life--not the force projection platform they once were.

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Ice Age's avatar

The primary purpose of modern weapons is to allow their manufacturers to suckle at the teat of the Federal beast for as long as possible.

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Hex168's avatar

I helped design a class of frigates for the Canadian Navy in the 1980's. (That takes a LOT of people, by the way. My piece was minimizing vulnerability - what systems you lose if it gets hit. Lots of probability - made my head hurt.) They were less than $1B each but not a lot less.

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Ice Age's avatar

Halifax class?

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Hex168's avatar

Yep.

A story about working with Scottish ship engineers (yes, they are really a thing, that's where the stereotype came from) up at the shipyard in New Brunswick. A bunch of us were out drinking and, for some reason I can't recall, were running down the middle of an empty street. I was pleased with myself for, so far, winning the race. Suddenly, they all started yelling, in thick accents, "Give way! Give way!" Which to my American-and-partially-inebriated ears was gibberish. Then I barely missed getting run over by the oncoming car they were warning me about. "Give way" means "Stop!"

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Steve Ward's avatar

just be happy they are not French tanks, those only have one gear, reverse.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

"ARVN rifles, never fired and only dropped once."

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Speed's avatar

what does the chevy class carrier cost

are there any dealer rebates or employee pricing discounts available

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Steve Ward's avatar

Yes, but you have to buy the nitrogen filled ballast tanks, the special undercoating, and the wild pinstripes, all for a mere $100M.

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Speed's avatar

but does it have apple carplay and backup cameras

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Ronnie Schreiber's avatar

The escort carriers that Henry Kaiser built, using mass production methods like prefabricated subassemblies, were a major factor in winning the war in the Pacific.

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Ice Age's avatar

Yeah, back when we actually CARED about winning wars.

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Glen Gray's avatar

Good. Maybe you could get rid of some of those hideous houses. No idea why real estate is so expensive for what you get. Just looks like poverty everywhere.

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Glen Gray's avatar

Good. Maybe you could get rid of those hideous houses. No idea how real estate got so expensive when everyone sees their neighbour from their kitchen. Poverty row everywhere in Toronto, Ottawa, Calgary, Vancouver, Kitchener, Oshawa. Ugly.

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Speed's avatar

probably a combination of boomer income properties and immigrant slumlords and their new tenants

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MJG's avatar

I for one welcome our glorious new Empress.

Also the A10's and crews are superfluous...the Spokane police department could conquer Canada in less than a week.

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Keith's avatar

You only need the crews and rifles probably

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S2kChris's avatar

Speaking of anti-hybrid, I put a deposit down on my Jeep 4xe’s replacement. I’ve ordered a new Willy’s edition with the V6 and 8AT, same engine combo as my old JLU Sport. Should take somewhere between 3-6 weeks to build. As I looked around the new car market I saw everything either A) becoming VERY expensive (GX550, Land Cruiser, Taco, 4Runner), B) moving to high stressed 4cyl engines or hybrid/4cyl combo (Grand Cherokee, some of the aforementioned Toyotas), or both. I wanted a basic-ass V6 at a price I could (mostly) afford. So we bought my wife’s MDX lease out, and I’m dumping the 4xe. Boo to this garbage. I’m done with it.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

That's the right Wrangler to get, IMO. Nice choice.

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S2kChris's avatar

Thanks. It loses me some JL forum cred, but I engaged the front locker exactly zero (0) times in the three years I’ve had the Rubicon. What I will miss more is the full time 4WD option of the 4xe transfer case, but for something like $7k saved, I don’t care that much.

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Dannyp's avatar

2 or 4 door? My dad just bought a new Gladiator with the V6 and 8 speed auto, and he likes it so far. I like that it allegedly has a lifetime warranty.

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S2kChris's avatar

4dr. I like the 2dr but in that it’s cargo OR passengers, and I often like to have both. This weekend I took my family to the lake, and then when we were up there I took three other full size dudes out to the hunting property to clear some trails. 2dr makes both of those unpleasant or impossible.

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Wyatt LCB's avatar

The Grand isn't available with the v6 and 8at anymore? Regardless of that, it absolutely goes into your "A" category.

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MD Streeter's avatar

I have a stupid, shallow opinion of the Monaco Grand Prix and I'm not ashamed of it. I love it. When the track became available to drive on Gran Turismo (5? 6? I don't remember) it was one of my favorites. The location is beautiful, the weekend it glamorous, and it's one of the few times in any sport where I enjoy the whole thing. So what if it's a parade? It puts extra emphasis on qualifying and makes the practices a little more interesting. Besides, F1 cars are cool, and few things in the world are cooler than F1 cars on the streets of Monaco.

When Perez is free, I have some gardening for him to do and a lawn to mow. I love how he, Magnuson, and Ocon all went to the Shaggy school of non-apologies: it wasn't me!

My wife hates Tsunoda, but I'm secretly rooting for him every race because Sargent seems to be a lost cause and Yuki's the closest thing I have to a fellow countryman on the grid. Sigh.

I like LeClerc winning, but it's quite hard to think of Monaco as a place with a really strongly nationalistic home crowd. The population is like 95% rich people from everywhere else. It's not quite like Senna winning the Brazilian GP, is it? Or even Zhou just showing up at Shanghai!

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Speed's avatar

the monaco circuit has been in gran turismo since gt3 as cote dazur butyou do make a good point about what it means to have a home crowd though

also do you want perez to do your gardening just because hes mexican or

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MD Streeter's avatar

Yes, I went full racist joke in that one.

I couldn't remember how early the GT series had the track. 6 is the most recent one I've played. I can't afford a new Playstation every few years.

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Speed's avatar

i actually purchased the 25th edition gt7 but i still have yet to buy a ps4 or ps5 and as a result it remains in its protective plastic wrap

those things are expensive

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unsafe release's avatar

7 doesn’t have Monaco yet, but hopefully it’s added in the future.

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Speed's avatar

given the pace of updates we just might soon

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Gianni's avatar

It’s too bad they can’t have a Monaco spec car for the race. Something like a mp 4/4 vs the current battleships. Or maybe install sprinklers around the course. It is cool to watch them thread the cars thru the swimming pool complex.

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MD Streeter's avatar

I would be fine with that. Someone said somewhere else they could just put the drivers in go-karts. I'm not sure it would be quite as glamorous, but it'd probably be better racing.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

Formula F, with Honda Fit power!

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Speed's avatar

its already been said 100 times but the cars are just too damn big

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Ataraxis's avatar

F1 cars or the 911?

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Speed's avatar

yes

but mostly the former

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Bill Caswell's avatar

They used to have Monaco spec cars that were pretty different. More than just a steering rack swap. But yeah they don’t fit anymore. The only option is to take the circuit into the harbor and open it up so you have a giant modern passing section in addition to most of the original circuit.

Also, you can sleep under the track for $20 a night. But you have to get to the parking garage before Thursday evening and then you’re locked in until Monday or so. You park like 7 stories below the track.

On the lowest level is a tunnel to another second parking garage that is so isolated. Only one floor 7 stories down. All with motion lighting that turns off when you sleep in the estate you rented. And bc it’s 7 stories down, you’ll need a blanket.

Oh and the bathrooms are amazing. The garage floors are epoxy and dust free! Like immaculate. Just know that you might be required to play soccer till sunrise, but you can always move up a level. And every spot has an electrical outlet so you can charge you gear. It’s soooo fun. In the morning, the elevator pops out in a square by an expresso train car thing. Right across from the foot bridge near pit in.

Ohhh and if the police decide you’re too drunk, they take you to the hospital for an IV and a meal. We went out with Nico’s mechanics the year he won. One of my favorite nights out in my entire life. But we lost Torben somewhere near sunrise… dude showed up perfect the next day. It’s like they dry cleaned his suit while he slept!

Ohhh and Nico had to split so he threw a huge party at Montreal. Of course I went! And I have this photo of Nico like 10’ up a stone wall, holding on by one hand, bottle of Yeager in other chanting something in German that the whole team echoed. Reminded me so much of the old James hunt photos. Wild. I just wanted to share the $20 parking lot hotel but the weekend got away from us. Omg I showered on the Sparco yacht and Mercedes yacht. EVERY bathroom at the party had a shower in it! Bc boat! And it’s the one thing I didn’t have! My hosts were wtf. Why is your hair wet? Did you just shower?

Also got to hang with mark webber. Didn’t realize I was in his personal lounge - I needed to make a phone call which he listened to laughing so hard that when security looked in he was no it’s cool. He can stay. And we had such a good laugh! Lauda hated me!!! But Clarkson and I were fucking with Coulthard (?) doing a live intro to the tv program and Lauda called us children or something funny. That night David Hobbs got drunk and went off on me! “I’ve raced the Nurburgring at night you little shit…” McNish told Alex sauber and kobayashi(f1 driver, not godfather of competing eating) that he wanted to quit racing. We tried for 5 min to talk him out of it. Then Alex was like “did you have fun?” And they smiled and hugged and we all toasted McNish. I tried to have a drink with the prince and princess, but couldn’t find a way into that room!

Ohhh and I got to sneak into the paddock for gp2 qualifying as a mechanic riding the carts in! Then got to watch qualifying from the office. It’s was so AWESOME! They were frantically trying to get him a gap while he warmed his tires!

Standing up high looking over the harbor, with the Monaco course below as fought to get pole was one of the coolest things I’ve seen in racing. We were sharing with Force India and someone was tig welding headers on the floor of the office…. “You didn’t see that”. Come this way…

And the whole time, everyone wanted to know where I was staying. Like it was a status thing… oh you’re rich like us… we love their $8,000 a night rooms…

“Yeah I’m staying at some Fiesta America deal. Bright red. Brand new. No way you’ve seen it” It was a preproduction Fiesta ST I borrowed in Amsterdam before the Nurburgring 24hr the week before and drown to Monaco. Wow…. I need to get back to that asap! I forgot so much!!!! Wow. So yeah there’s a $20 room below the track so you can sleep in your car! 🤣

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Gianni's avatar

Yeah I was thinking about one of the front engine era cars of the 50’s where they basically chopped the nose down so it would be shorter for Monaco as well as Moss’ lotus where they took the side panels off for Monaco.

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Bill Caswell's avatar

Oh yeah!!!!! I love that era too! Free to create and innovate on the fly!

One of my favorites is Rene Dreyfus and his brother fitting a second fuel tank the night before the second Monaco go so he could skip the pit stop and beat Chiron! The think it was Rene’s brother that actually did the work in the parking lot and strapped it to the passenger seat footwell, but can’t find enough details bc any google search with Monaco is F’d right now.

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Speed's avatar

if youve not written a book by now you ought to

genuinely

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Jeff R's avatar

This. Monaco is rarely a great race, but the qualifying is good to great. Last year's quali was a top 3 highlight of the season for me. The history and glamour of the whole event is worth keeping. It's not like they'd replace it with a good track anyway, just another petrostate sportswashing street circuit.

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MD Streeter's avatar

thankyou.gif

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Gianni's avatar

That’s pretty much it. There’s no tobacco money in Europe anymore.

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unsafe release's avatar

Big Ferrari fan from way back, so Chucky chocking up a win is fine with me!

I love Monaco. It’s so wrong for F1, yet so right. I just can’t take my eyes off it all weekend long even if it turns into a procession like we saw on Sunday. Doesn’t matter, it rocks!

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Craig Yirush's avatar

Was Monaco really in an earlier Gran Turismo?

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Morgan's avatar

"Oh, and the water pump is now inside the engine. That’s a great idea."

-*insert profanity-laced tirade*

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Erik's avatar

I thought starters under the plenum and water cooled alternators were dumb. I’m glad they are working hard to produce more totally ridiculous places to put things in engines.

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Speed's avatar

i think the starters in under the plenum is preferable to having them exposed to salt spray for several months of the year but the internal water pump is odd and id want to see it

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Erik's avatar

I’m guessing you’ve never changed an under the plenum starter before. The LT5 was amongst the first to put it there, not out of any desire for that placement, but because they needed to fit the engine in from the bottom, through a whole design for a L83 or L98. Constantly heat soaking your compact starter is not a great idea.

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Speed's avatar

yup

but i have dealt with way too many corroded bolts for my liking

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Erik's avatar

For a newbie, it’s usually a couple of hours for a plenum swap. The experienced guys can do it in an hour or so. The guys who do it a lot actually bypass the coolant flow to the plenum, which does make things easier. Then remove a ton of vacuum hoses. The ignition system. Etc. Have a look:

https://youtu.be/9e4puSQuJ4E?si=y2IF9rDrZ1KxhzEa

And how she sounds when it’s done. https://youtu.be/Uzsm9cQcKTQ?si=wXMM7aj5g3mxdWru

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Speed's avatar

id take that any day of the week over crawling underneath a car with oily slush raining down on me

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Steve Ward's avatar

and I'll second that tirade and raise it with an incredulous WTF!

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Ronnie Schreiber's avatar

The major design flaw of Harry Mundy's Lotus Twin Cam is that the water pump is integral to the timing cover. To rebuild the water pump you have to remove the cylinder head, so there are aftermarket timing covers with cassette water pumps.

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Ice Age's avatar

That's fucking stupid.

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Ronnie Schreiber's avatar

Mundy was somewhat constrained in that the LTC was based on the pushrod Ford "Kent" four cylinder block. It's a 60+ year old design. You adjust the valves by changing shims under the cam followers, which means removing the cams.

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Speed's avatar

and you can still buy the cast iron blocks from ford performance

for some reason

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Ronnie Schreiber's avatar

Perhaps the reason is that there's a market for them. Lotus made about 34,000 Twin Cams. If I'm not mistaken, they're still used in racing. Also, Elans have appreciated significantly in value.

In building a Twin Cam from scratch, or if you're replacing the block, Ford made some changes over production and you want to use a particular series block and the Ford Performance blocks are that variant.

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Speed's avatar

youre entirely correct

im just a bit miffed that both versions of that block are readily available but a flathead isnt despite being infinitely more popular

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Ice Age's avatar

Because the only advantage of aluminum is light weight.

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John Van Stry's avatar

I think you absolutely nailed the omnicause.

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G. K.'s avatar

Re the internal water pump on the 911: because that worked out so well for FoMoCo on the transverse Duratec engines. Come to think of it, the Duratec was originally a Porsche design, back when Porsche had to do contract engineering and manufacturing in order to keep the lights on, and before they had time for the sort of self-flagellating, overpriced, overweight tribute cars they now make.

Re the Omniparty: I’m pretty left-leaning—in so far as I don’t believe in too many institutions, and I don’t think there’s anything liberal about what’s going on. It’s disturbing.

Re my new S 550 Coupe: The fuel smell I mentioned earlier this week is due to a pinhole leak in the fuel pump that is just spraying pressurized gasoline everywhere. Fortunately, the S-Class has an access panel under the rear seat to get to the fuel pump, and no dropping of the tank is required. So the Mercedes-Benz/Lexus independent that’s currently holding it was able to find the cause a couple of hours after I dropped it off.

I let the dealer where I bought it (Audi of Tulsa) know, and my salesman is going to try to get them to cover the repair, because he said I was really kind to him and because he said their inspection should have caught it. But even if they don’t, it’s only an $800 repair to replace the pump and clean all the fuel up.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

Alright. I've had my fingers lightweight crossed for you on this because I'm past ready for you to have some good news car-wise.

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G. K.'s avatar

Thank you. It's funny, because people always ask me to go shopping for cars with them. I apparently don't know how to buy cars, because the worst things happen. I've had (in order, and by mistake):

- A 1997 VW Jetta VR6 that was only running on three cylinders

- A 2011 BMW X5 that turned out to have been water damaged

- A 2014 Lincoln MKS that was supposed to be CPO, and wasn't

- A brand-new 2019 VW Tiguan that turned out to have been wrecked

- A 2004 Jaguar XJ that needed every bit of the suspension overhauled

- A 1993 Mercedes-Benz 500 SL with an inoperative convertible top

- A 2011 Lexus LS 460 L with a bad brake actuator

- A 2013 Audi A8 L 4.0T with a defective transmission

- A 2010 Range Rover Supercharged with a poorly rebuilt engine

- A 1996 Jaguar XJ12 that promptly lost its alternator and then its transmission

- A 2008 Lexus LS 600h L with a bad traction battery

- A 2018 Genesis G90 5.0 that quickly lost a transfer case, and that took 100 days to procure the title for

- A 2015 Land Rover LR4 with god knows what that keeps causing it to lose trace amounts of coolant and trigger a fuel-pump-related CEL after every cold start, and

- This Mercedes-Benz.

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Hex168's avatar

Have you considered public transit?

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G. K.'s avatar

Or, frankly, a Camry.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

OIL SLUDGE

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Speed's avatar

bus might break down

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Pete Madsen's avatar

If you bought a sailboat the wind would never blow again...?

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Speed's avatar

if he went for a walk his laces would fall out

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Donkey Konger's avatar

🫡🫡🫡

Impressive and/or horrifying.

Also this might be the only time the phrase "stunning and brave" has ever applied literally

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Acd's avatar

I made the SL with an inoperative convertible top mistake too along with an even bigger mistake: mine only has six cylinders.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

It's a good thing you're handsome, because otherwise you'd have no luck, really.

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SajivW's avatar

Kyree, I read each one of the long form pieces about these, and was marvelling at your bravery for taking them on each and every time! I genuinely hope the S class proves to be relatively problem free, for once.

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MD Streeter's avatar

I want to have a Jaguar so I can enjoy it for two or three days and then have a tragic story about it sitting parked for months (years?) before getting it repaired only to have it break again immediately and sell it at a massive loss.

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G Jetson's avatar

Just write me a check for $7300 to save yourself the buying and selling time, while taking a big loss that will be my big gain. And make up any story you want about the model, year, problems, etc. It's a win-win-win!

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MD Streeter's avatar

The next time I have $7300 to blow I'll keep you in mind!

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G Jetson's avatar

I think you WANT to believe in these cars and have a savior complex. Well, then you did use the word "mistake." These Euro machines on your list are generally trouble-prone, particular the English ones. The only ones I'd figure would be safe bets would be the Lexus(es), so that's a surprise.

I am sure your luck will change when you start buying Prius(es).

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Hex168's avatar

On my A8, the fuel pump, once replaced, kept destroying itself. After replacing it a few times the Audi dealer refused to work on it anymore. An independent fixed it by redesigning the fuel system and adding a priming fuel pump.

Of course, what a German car needs to be fixed is more complexity!

My Mercedes treats me better than my Audis did, but it is no S550. I hope yours is more like my W212 and less like my D2 A8.

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Speed's avatar

i did really like leclerc winning monaco but will continue to enjoy watching max blow by everyone next race and lewis looking worse each time hes on track

and as far as track racing goes i just really like seeing streetcars go fast there because its about the only place you can run flat out for very long although obviously the purpose built stuff is way faster and better

the deluge of anti white sentiments coming from all vectors is exhausting and im so sick of it and have zero belief that it will slow anytime soon as it feels like those responsible cant ever be uprooted from their positions

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Amelius Moss's avatar

Some days I believe it's a enemy of my enemies thing. Some days I believe it's Ephesians 6:12. Some days I just think people are fucking stupid.

I've spent a lot of time in WV lately and that makes me feel all spiritual so today it's Ephesians. That and Tucker Carlson discussing it with Danica Patrick.......WHAT IS HAPPENING?!?!

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Ataraxis's avatar

Before I read your 2nd paragraph I thought, “it’s Ephesians 6:12”.

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Amelius Moss's avatar

Who would have thought the end times would get THAT twisted.

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Ataraxis's avatar

We should never underestimate evil, but we do.

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Speed's avatar

i knew the end times would be dark and evil but was not prepared for it to be this gay and retarded

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Amelius Moss's avatar

Actually that part was clearly prophesied.

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Andy's avatar

Occam's Razor suggests that the screaming, protesting, performing nits are simply dumb as a parakeet. My parallel existence as both an intelligent, classically educated, upper-middle class Jew lawyer and a long-standing member of

the, ahem, artist class tells me the vast, overwhelming majority of self-identified creatives ("All Eyes On YOU Motherfucker") are gibbering idiots incapable of a moment of self-reflection.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

God knows that's true of me and my brother, anyway!

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Andy's avatar

I was thinking more of visual artists, writers are mostly equally stupid but not always.

Your pal and now mine, DK, and I have been comparing notes on the photography community on IG and it ain't pretty.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

The photography community on IG should be on the spaceship that DOESN'T go to the new planet.

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Morgan's avatar

Make sure to send some phone sanitizing technicians, for God's sake!

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Hex168's avatar

I think the point is NOT to send the phone sanitizing technicians.

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Erik's avatar

As sad as that new 911 is, would anyone actually want the car that, to me, is the ultimate 911? That being something like a 1987 911 Carrera? Yes, it “only” does 150mph, but I did 150mph in one for a bunch of miles, and it’s really as fast as I need to go. It wasn’t 250 mph, but man, it FELT good. Everything that was annoying at slow speeds, like the slightly dead and too heavy steering, the stupid floor hinged pedals, the lack of torque from the 3.2, all felt PERFECT at 150 mph. It just gelled together like no other car. But would anyone buy that car today? A car that is more about how it feels to the driver, and how it makes you feel, rather than what magazines, influencers or pedestrians on the sidewalk think about it. Or, What idiotic ring number it generates. Add in the fact that any time you drove it hard, in any capacity, you always had that tingle in the lizard brain that if you did something even a bit stupid, it would kill you. It was a car that felt alive and made you feel alive. That drive happened In September of 1990, and I remember every detail of it.

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Sir Morris Leyland's avatar

resale values have spoken

also there is a belief that air-cooled models were engineered for trackside repairability, not dealer unrepairability

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Speed's avatar

but do they want it because of what it feels like or because of what it is

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Speed's avatar

i already wanted one but you made me want one harder

please write more

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Terry Murray's avatar

I’m looking really hard at a 991.1 S to keep until I shuffle off. The new Carrera reinforces that choice. I had a cab with a 7MT. I hated that transmission. This one has a PDK which means I will have to renounce my membership in the Manual Gearbox Preservation Society. I will have launch control though for all those times I will need it. I know it’s bloated over the 997 but I like the way it looks more and I have to look at it in the garage every day.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

So this would be an NA 3.8 with the PDK?

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Terry Murray's avatar

Yep. I haven’t driven one yet so it may be a no-go. The prices have come down a bit in the 991.1. It’s the last normally aspirated version which means nothing value-wise.

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Jack Baruth's avatar

If you like the wide interior of the 991 and after, this is the one to get IMO.

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Terry Murray's avatar

I really enjoyed driving my 991 cab other than the 7MT. I did a lot of 1-4 and 4-1 shifts for some reason. I like to believe it was because they crammed the 7th gear in there and it was not my fault at all. I could never get the feel for it. That being said, I did like how it handled and the feedback.

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Andy's avatar

The 7sp seemed pointless to me. On the Carrera T it came with a little bit of a short shifter, but it managed to be both slow and notchy.

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Terry Murray's avatar

It was the notchiness that got me. My six speed on my 987 Spyder was smooth as silk. Too bad the gearing was too tall. I went from that to the 991 and fought it for a couple years. One thing about having a shitload of Porsches over the last thirty-nine years is I know what I liked and disliked about each of them. My ranked choice voting for top three are 993, 991.1 S, and 987 Spyder. I don’t think medium mileage 993s are worth 100k so I’m looking at the 991.

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Ataraxis's avatar

I’m not a huge fan of the M7 on my C7. The 5-4 shift is horrible. I have probably only been in 7th a few times on a flat Interstate. Really frosted me that GM then went and put an M6 in the CT5V.

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soberD's avatar

6 is one too many. Why the fuck do I need two overdrive gears.

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Jeff Winks's avatar

I can’t keep the model numbers straight and now they add dots

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Andy's avatar

Smart man. I liked the 991.2 Carrera T I had for a couple years but would have liked the NA 991.1 S better I'm sure.

The PDK rocks. It's like a little secret for us old guys.

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Ataraxis's avatar

There’s an interesting video on the Rennthusiast channel where the host ordered his dream spec version of the latest T, then sold it after 3000 miles because he hated it.

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Ataraxis's avatar

One more thing, the host prior to his order could find no negative or nuanced reviews of the T.

Porsche has to be smiling over that. All hail the new hybrid and superior German engineering!

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sgeffe's avatar

And God help you if you keep it a picosecond past warranty!

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Andy's avatar

A T in a 992 is kind of of ridiculous. It was pretty stupid in the 991 too, but at least it was a narrow body, so you could say it was a lightened and well specced Carrera, and it really didn't weigh very much. In the big butt 992 I'm not sure what the point would be.

I'm done with new 911s anyways. They all seem pointless. I'm keeping my 4 cylinder Boxster for good, enjoy driving that thing every time I use it, couldn't say that about the Carrera T.

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Craig Yirush's avatar

Heard others complain about the 7 speed. What’s wrong with it?

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Terry Murray's avatar

It was notchy. Plus adding the seventh gear seamed to have compressed the linkage so that I had many 1-4 and 4-1 shifts. It may have been me but I could not get used to it. The main problem was I came from the six speed in the Boxster Spyder which was great other than the tall gear ratios in the lower gears.

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