Everything I've read about autocross is that it's a ball... and it's relatively cheap. For whatever reason, however, I was drawn to the road course and never really interested in autocross. But anything that attracts people to the car hobby is worth preserving... I hope the autocross community gets it figured out.
I found autocross to be an absolute snoozefest. Stand around in the sun all day and talk to weirdos so you can drive for 90 seconds. I found that I had much more fun at the local indoor karting track and I didn't have to spend my spare time constantly working on a car.
HPDE or W2W I'd probably feel different about. COVID happened and I sold the cars and started riding ATVs with my friends. That's been enough to feed my appetite for now.
W2W is unlike anything I've ever done... and I've done a fair amount. The great thing about the road course is most organizations are building to the ultimate experience of W2W racing... i.e., HPDE, then some advanced track day groups, then open passing groups, then Time Trial, and finally W2W... very rewarding to finally go green for your first race.
Al Jourgensen once said that Black Sabbath was "more addictive than heroin or pussy"... Wheel-to-wheel racing is more addictive than Black Sabbath.
Peter Egan described the desire to go racing as “making heroin addiction look like a vague longing for something salty.”
“Fortunately” I had a mismatch of funds and age early on when I could have been coached and developed; I tried a couple auto-xs, found out that I wasn’t anything close to Schumacher II, and walked away.
I’m with you. My local indoor kart track has a well-done league that I enjoyed a great deal more than autocross. Would happily push anybody in that direction if they wanted to try motorsports.
At the risk of being burned at the “you’re a racist” stake, I’ve heard that the Chinese market loves huge gaudy showy grills, so that’s what we all get.
I blame Walter de Silva. When he left Alfa Romeo and joined Audi, he took the Alfa heart grille and turned it into a rectangle and drug the corner handles to enlarge it and slapped it on Audis. Other Corporate Design Center designers started copying it and here we are.
We recently had an autocross where a car spun across the finish and into the grid, totaling it and two other cars. Someone was in one of the other cars and was concussed. If anyone had been standing between or behind the cars in grid they'd probably have been killed. Every high powered car was sliding at the finish, it was not a great setup.
Immediately admonishments to not take photos/video and even delete any that had been taken were adamantly declared.
Amazingly, SCCA insurance covered the 2 cars that were in grid.
I agree on the point about risk. Hell, 90% of my job is assessing risks and developing mitigation strategies. Being 100% ignorant of the course design/site selection process, is there some sort of risk assessment performed on part of the SCCA members prior to moving forward with a place?
Looking at the diagram, it seems idiotic that a run would end with cars driving head-on towards a building. The risk of mechanical failure should be high enough to make that a non-starter. Putting porta-johns in the same area is even worse as those occupying them have zero situational awareness.
This is a pretty unfortunate situation that seems preventable, as with other motorsports incidents Jack has dissected (SpeedVegas, Disney World, etc.). I'm not one for more regulation, but I recall a prior article regarding SCCA rules that said something to the effect of "every rule in that rulebook was the result of someone's death." At the very least, hopefully this leads to some actual thought being put into course design.
As an aside, my subscription recently renewed. If we want to change our membership level, do we get double-billed or will this week's payment apply towards the new rate?
My son bought a year old Ducati with factory race kit for $3,000.00 from a woman who didn't like it, he didn't either until I made -one- tiny change that transformed how it ran and rode, now he loves it .
_SO_ many motor vehicles out there someone doesn't want, keep your eyes open Sir .
My 1975 BMW R60/6 had 8,000 miles on it and always garaged when I bought it for you don't want to know how little $ because it was way the hell and gone out in the sticks .
Well said. That layout does look problematic. Maybe the logic behind your thoughts took a back seat to the logistics of starting and ending the run where they did.
Impossible to regulate/ legislate the end of mortality— especially with an inherently dangerous activity. But stupidity (if that was the case here), is another matter.
I thought the same as you when I viewed the diagram. Knowing that many would be givenrrr to the line for the fastest time possible, it’s counterintuitive to have anything after the finish other than a long runoff area.
Our culture makes a big deal out of being detail-oriented, but if you do it too much, you're "sperging" and if you get angry about little things, then you're "petty" and "small-minded," and if you have a problem with this state of affairs, it means you're some kind of autistic robot who doesn't "get" people.
Amen and amen. I’ve learned the hard way that there is a balance, even without the added context of dealing with the world at large. Worrying about too much of the small shit will drive you insane, especially if you’re neurodivergent.
I keep seeing this word more and more, often used by people I know to be perfectly ordinary. Obviously if you’re on the autism spectrum or other diagnosed condition, it’s one thing, but otherwise it seems to be the latest trend amongst the attention seeking up there with a gluten allergy or gender dysphoria. Average-ass people desperately clamoring for something that makes them “unique”, or in this case, justifies their relative lack of intelligence.
You’ve got a point… I do see it being used more often as another “check engine light” in the race toward the bottom known as intersectionality. The more idiot lights you have illuminated, the more valid your opinion, which leads to a vicious crying wolf syndrome. In my case, I am actually on the autism spectrum, but I can see where my legitimate usage of the word gets lost in the noise of “but I’M neurodivergent because [insert incoherent word salad here]!”
You’ll love the Elexes. They’re a significant upgrade from ATH-M50’s. I’ve had them for 3-4 years without ever feeling any real desire to replace them. If you don’t have a headphone amp, I’d highly recommend picking one up, even if it’s something small.
The more I learn about Mr. Arutunoff; the stronger the realization I want to have a drink with him. Sounds like I should add Mr. Kochanowski to the list.
nope, doggone it...continuing estate sales and depression that karen's gone; selling all the old cars and bikes. pittsburgh's absolutely wonderful. anybody remember--was it the park race in philly? marc gerstein and i would talk about it at scca conventions. back when they actually HAD them. jeepers!
The NER SCCA has an outstanding site on the run ways of an old air force base that’s also used for police driver training. The runways and taxiways naturally allow fun, higher speed layouts with decent run off area. If you end up off course, there is truly nothing to hit - except for the course workers.
You try to stand in a safe location but with slaloms it’s possible for cars to go off in either direction. Nobody has ever been hit that I’ve seen but people have had to run out of the way of an off-course car before.
It’s something that always made me uncomfortable. But it’s also a risk that we accepted by being there and signing the damned waivers.
We should be honest about the risks involved in any motorsports activity. We should also be allowed to accept them and participate anyways.
If I know the SCCA, this incident will definitely create new rules for course design. Rest in peace to the two drivers involved.
I can also echo your statement about joining the SCCA! Volunteering at club races is a ton of fun and great way for racing outsiders to get into it.
You would THINK that in an effort to avoid these problems that the people running them would enforce the rules and not just Look The Other Way.
And putting the porta-potties out past the finish line? In a straight line? Yeah, somebody needs to be sued into oblivion for being an utter moron. That or charged with criminal negligence.
As for looking the other way, look at the Reno Air Races where pilots actually get killed on a regular basis. The 'look the other way' culture there is strong. There have been a number of serious incidents and accidents where they completely looked the other way. They're even still making excuses for a crash that killed ten people when it was clearly the fault of the pilot - who I was a FAN OF, but as a guy who used to work in flight test, you don't make the world/sport/product/industry safer by making excuses.
I used to belong to a street bike (motorcycle) racing group where we had a thing you could sign up for, and basically it said: If I fuck up and get killed, please tell everyone else just how I fucked up so they don't repeat my mistake.
I bet that wouldn't get any signers these days. Nobody ever wants to admit that they made a mistake or screwed up or did something stupid anymore. Now it's always somebody else's fault.
I wouldn’t say the Warbird community is one that says don’t talk about it. The groups I have worked with are the exact opposite. Especially with the money and time involved. Cleaner and more professional than most NASCAR teams. Some of the ride operators maybe but when you have multiple licenses to loose and the Federal Aviation Regulations indicate what needs to be reported it is all out there.
Don’t know why the racing crews keep it secret. More to learn from issues so it doesn’t happen again. I read the NTSB reposts from all crashes not out of morbid fascination but to see what happens and what can be done to prevent the problem. Our flight club goes over them. We all talk about the incidents. Especially for the types of aircraft we fly. It makes you better. Why repeat someone else’s mistakes when I can make my own.
One of the things I enjoy is going over pertinent accident with students. Remember when you were slow and uncoordinated on the base to final turn? Here is why we don’t do that. Go over an NTSB report with them for the same aircraft and then practice the same thing at altitude. Drills the point home.
SCCA would do better to record and share than to run and hide. Self regulate or you get crushed. Last thing I want to see is for SCCA and groups like it to disappear. That is a loss for us all.
Ah, but a LOT of the warbird community IS like that.
Remember that B-17 that crashed? Not the recent one that got hit by another airplane because if you say ANYTHING about the bullshit that goes on with the Commemorative Air Force they throw your ass out the door. (and there's a LOT there that needs to be talked about because they're incredibly unsafe these days).
I'm talking about the one in New England, where the Pilot was the Chief Mechanic and who really WASN'T Qualified to fly it, for all the hours he had in it, which he proved by turning a minor problem into a major one, because he hadn't the first fucking CLUE about how to deal with problems. So he crashed and killed a whole bunch of people because they'd been keeping secrets (I flew on that airplane as a passenger about 9 years prior to the accident - there were a few questionable things back then, but I thought they had exemptions - found out later they didn't).
Then there was that b-24 I think? That crashed in California because again, pilot didn't know what the fuck he was doing and decided he'd show off a little. And everyone doesn't talk about the pilots doing stupid shit in million dollar airplanes that they don't own.
There are dozens of warbird crashes out there that happened because the pilot didn't listen to what he was told, and then everyone kept quiet about it. We lost our chief test pilot at Grumman that way.
So yeah, I've seen a lot of it. I've also heard more than a few race pilots bitch, loudly, about some of the shit that was going on. Famous guys like Tiger and a few others.
Hell, I saw a pilot turf and destroy a voodoo because no one had ever bothered to tell him the facts of life about centrifugal compressor jet engines (which I've got about a hundred hours in). I talked to the pilot later and asked him if he knew about X and not to do it. He said no one ever told him. So I told him. Too bad it was after he blew up the engine by doing X and almost killed himself.
Yeah, all the 'old guys' who know are timing out. No one reads the manuals and if you got the money, you can buy a nice new racing jet (used to only cost 125K, now they're a little bit more) and go out there and suddenly get yourself into a whoooole lot of shit (and die in a big fireball seen it TWICE now) because jets don't fly like props AT ALL. But no one wants to teach these guys that, or pull their racing license when they won't listen.
The guy that crashed and almost killed me at the races? There was a problem with his plane before it 'broke'. I could SEE it as he flew by on the last lap. He HAD to have known. But he decided to press on anyway. Do or DIE. Well, he died. So did ten other folks, some of whom I knew.
Did anybody MENTION this after the NTSB report came out?
Nope. Even thought it was written in the report for all to see.
Yeah, they keep way too many secrets these days. Because telling Mr. Moneybags that he's a f'in asshole with no training and he's not a fighter pilot but instead a danger to all those around you will get you fired and mabe even blacklisted - because his money is FAR more important that YOU are. Or even the people he might kill when he crashes and burns.
Sorry for the rant, but this is a touchy subject with me. Money and idiots have taken over the warbird community. Most of the old guys, like I said, aren't there anymore. I've also noticed that some of the really good 'up and comers' who got trained by the 'old men' and who DO know better? They're all stepping back. Can't say as I blame 'em either.
My sister was acquainted a bit with someone in the New England crash, the sibling of a friend.
I hate air shows. Your mileage may vary, but I have no idea if a pilot is a chucklehead or if the equipment is up to snuff. Static displays are cool but the crowds are way to too close when the aircraft are in the air. I live about a mile from an airport that does air shows every couple of years. The landing pattern on a regular day goes over my house. Sometimes I can see a pilot picking his nose.
When the circus hits my town, I usually go for a 3 - 4 hour ride somewhere else.
I always enjoyed the fly days that Paul Allen’s warbird collection had in the summers before he passed. The planes were flown very gently usually by Steve Hinton or his son. I think Paul told him to just do passes down the runway at KPAE with lazy turns at the end. It was cool to see a lot of rare stuff actually be a plane. I guess some Walmart heir bought the collection so I imagine it’s remaining time in Everett is short. They haven’t had a fly day since 2019.
To be fair, the Walmart dude saved it from Paul's creepy sister. Paul was a creeper too but at least he's dead. A lot of stuff has been memory holed with those two.
"Air show?! Buzzcut Alabamians flying their whiz-jets to the strains of 'Rock You Like A Hurricane?!' What kind of country-fried rube is still impressed by THAT?!"
Those are the ones selling rides NOT the racers at Reno or air racers in general. Totally different. But understand exactly what you mean.
It’s not hours accumulated but how you approach it. Have refused to check people out in planes or ride with them due to their attitude.
Some people with money are that way with cars, boats, and submersible craft (I hear deep down that Stockton Rush is crushing it!) wait too soon? But then again you have Trevor Jacob https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Jacob who crashes his plane and did it for clicks. I can’t stand em. Makes it harder for the rest of us. All hubris and a part of human nature. Rules apply to others. Well physics is a bitch and doesn’t care.
Was trained by those old guys. Trying to pass it on. Train someone to be safe and knows how to fly. Not just pass a check ride. See enough of that from the zero to hero programs that are being cranked out. When the automation stops I don’t want to fly raw data with them. They can’t fall back on the aviate, navigate,communicate.
I thought the comedian Cody Woods nailed it. He was doing A show right after they had announced the sub was missing. He started in on the joke and everyone started ohhhhh ing and groaning. He immediately told them hey wait at this point they’re still alive. It’s not too soon.
Here is where I chide you for not watching WSBK— but paying attention to “baggers”! I could possibly give you a pass for one of those transgressions; but certainly not both of them!
I haven’t marshaled in two years (all road circuits), but still have my SCCA license. I’ll be looking very closely at what, if any, reaction the SCCA has to this unfortunate incident.
In the meantime, us racer chasers also have to make noise… yes, we sign a waiver to be there; and yes, we accept that this isn’t a riskless hobby (and thank the good Lord above, else I wouldn’t be *living*!). Our observations on track absolutely can and do affect the outcomes of races; we ought to expect the same treatment with our safety concerns.
Autocross is in a tough spot - it has all the noise complaint issues of road courses, drag strips and shooting ranges but even worse because the sites are mostly not used for autox, and tend to be in less remote areas. Add to that the site owners main source of revenue can't be autox and there's really zero incentive for them to rent sites out even ignoring the safety liability side of things.
As far as the risk goes - I don't think the desire to downplay risks or sweep things under the rug is something that only happens in the SCCA (Although they certainly are aggressive about it). I've seen cars totalled at every form of motorsport I've particpated in from autocross up to time trials across multiple clubs, and the personal risk is rarely seriously discussed. People's priority always seems to be to generate interest/participation of new people. I completely understand from the organizer's perspective, but it does seem like a hobby wide problem.
Related - finally got my car fully back together and made it out to an autox on Saturday and HDPE on Sunday and low and behold, saw a car get smashed up (To be fair it was at the DE).
On a serious note, a lack of available facilities, combined with the risk-averse culture that makes the rules, is why so many people street race.
It also leads to a pervasive Nobody Saw Nothin culture in the races, in part because of the very real danger of busybodies using ANY pretense to agitate for shutting down a track.
I'm looking to have some small trays made for glassware and possibly kitchen gadgets. Also need help getting a kitchen vent fan transition and exhaust vent into cad so a sheet metal guy can make what i need. Ice Age, if this is your thing, let me know
(If this post is not user classifieds please delet this)
You might be able to do it yourself with FreeCAD. There are lots of tutorials on YouTube. With something like a vent transition you could probably do it with just using FreeCAD's primitive shapes (cylinders, cubes, tubes etc.).
I'd be willing to take a swing at it. Making prints is something I've done professionally, and I do appreciate some highly-designed home goods. Do you have sketches/dimensions or a general idea of what you're looking for?
Is this just another situation where the cars got too fast and the tires too good?
Speaking of which, how many military flight decks were lost to the forever wars? No light poles there.
Make cones, not war!
Vaccident?
Nah, they both had something on Hillary.
Everything I've read about autocross is that it's a ball... and it's relatively cheap. For whatever reason, however, I was drawn to the road course and never really interested in autocross. But anything that attracts people to the car hobby is worth preserving... I hope the autocross community gets it figured out.
I found autocross to be an absolute snoozefest. Stand around in the sun all day and talk to weirdos so you can drive for 90 seconds. I found that I had much more fun at the local indoor karting track and I didn't have to spend my spare time constantly working on a car.
HPDE or W2W I'd probably feel different about. COVID happened and I sold the cars and started riding ATVs with my friends. That's been enough to feed my appetite for now.
W2W is unlike anything I've ever done... and I've done a fair amount. The great thing about the road course is most organizations are building to the ultimate experience of W2W racing... i.e., HPDE, then some advanced track day groups, then open passing groups, then Time Trial, and finally W2W... very rewarding to finally go green for your first race.
Al Jourgensen once said that Black Sabbath was "more addictive than heroin or pussy"... Wheel-to-wheel racing is more addictive than Black Sabbath.
Peter Egan described the desire to go racing as “making heroin addiction look like a vague longing for something salty.”
“Fortunately” I had a mismatch of funds and age early on when I could have been coached and developed; I tried a couple auto-xs, found out that I wasn’t anything close to Schumacher II, and walked away.
Was that Eagan or Ross Bentley? I've heard it before but I don't remember where...
I remember it as an Egan writing in Side Glances.
I’m with you. My local indoor kart track has a well-done league that I enjoyed a great deal more than autocross. Would happily push anybody in that direction if they wanted to try motorsports.
I had the exact same experience. An open track day may be 5x the cost but it’s also 100x more fun
AutoX is a lot of fun and I would still be doing it if it were my only motorsports outlet, but it doesn’t hold a candle to real wheel-to-wheel racing.
If you buy used, karting isn’t significantly more expensive and you don’t put any wear on your own street car.
There are easier ways to spend more time having more fun with yourself. Without having to kick cones with people in weird hats. 😉
I'm the world's worst human being, because while it's terrible that two people died, HOW they shuffled off this mortal coil is pure black comedy gold.
Yes, what a way to go ... ... ...
Blue comedy gold
First thought was to do a photoshop of the lawyer scene in Jurassic Park with an Elantra.
Elantra N has the Jurassic maw for it
Yeah, it and the current Tundra.
Seems like everything today has an oversized grille with an oversized badge as part of its Corporate Design Language.
Sorta like the rule of, "When something isn't good, they just make it loud."
Old graphic design saying: “If you can’t make it good make it big, if you can’t make it big make it red.”
At the risk of being burned at the “you’re a racist” stake, I’ve heard that the Chinese market loves huge gaudy showy grills, so that’s what we all get.
I blame Walter de Silva. When he left Alfa Romeo and joined Audi, he took the Alfa heart grille and turned it into a rectangle and drug the corner handles to enlarge it and slapped it on Audis. Other Corporate Design Center designers started copying it and here we are.
Just like rappers!
Heard that too.
We recently had an autocross where a car spun across the finish and into the grid, totaling it and two other cars. Someone was in one of the other cars and was concussed. If anyone had been standing between or behind the cars in grid they'd probably have been killed. Every high powered car was sliding at the finish, it was not a great setup.
Immediately admonishments to not take photos/video and even delete any that had been taken were adamantly declared.
Amazingly, SCCA insurance covered the 2 cars that were in grid.
so do they have any way to enforce the "no photos" edict?
Not really. I suppose they could ban you from participation.
Ban the whistle blowers, and not the dangerous setups or drivers. Seems very 2023
In all seriousness, that's very 1973.
Having lived through both I’d say more 23.
Before my time, but the response to Watergate compared to what's going on today seems like a good comparison.
I agree on the point about risk. Hell, 90% of my job is assessing risks and developing mitigation strategies. Being 100% ignorant of the course design/site selection process, is there some sort of risk assessment performed on part of the SCCA members prior to moving forward with a place?
Looking at the diagram, it seems idiotic that a run would end with cars driving head-on towards a building. The risk of mechanical failure should be high enough to make that a non-starter. Putting porta-johns in the same area is even worse as those occupying them have zero situational awareness.
This is a pretty unfortunate situation that seems preventable, as with other motorsports incidents Jack has dissected (SpeedVegas, Disney World, etc.). I'm not one for more regulation, but I recall a prior article regarding SCCA rules that said something to the effect of "every rule in that rulebook was the result of someone's death." At the very least, hopefully this leads to some actual thought being put into course design.
As an aside, my subscription recently renewed. If we want to change our membership level, do we get double-billed or will this week's payment apply towards the new rate?
There is one area where women love risk and over the years I’ve been more than happy to oblige.
Scott ;
Just shift the recklessness to riding Motocycles and problem solved plus, NO BASTARDS =8=-) .
-Nate
You just have to beat the bushes Scott ;
My son bought a year old Ducati with factory race kit for $3,000.00 from a woman who didn't like it, he didn't either until I made -one- tiny change that transformed how it ran and rode, now he loves it .
_SO_ many motor vehicles out there someone doesn't want, keep your eyes open Sir .
My 1975 BMW R60/6 had 8,000 miles on it and always garaged when I bought it for you don't want to know how little $ because it was way the hell and gone out in the sticks .
-Nate
Substack is smart like that. You'll just pay the difference. But if you get charged more I'll refund you personally
I just flipped mine and it worked as intended. Thanks a ton!
Well said. That layout does look problematic. Maybe the logic behind your thoughts took a back seat to the logistics of starting and ending the run where they did.
Impossible to regulate/ legislate the end of mortality— especially with an inherently dangerous activity. But stupidity (if that was the case here), is another matter.
I thought the same as you when I viewed the diagram. Knowing that many would be givenrrr to the line for the fastest time possible, it’s counterintuitive to have anything after the finish other than a long runoff area.
I’d absolutely love to have those Focals. Curious to have an upgrade from my well-worn Audio Technica ATH-M50 cans.
Somewhat related—will there be another member classifieds post?
Yes, on Monday.
Cool beans! Hope my comment registered as “I want the headphones”; ‘spergy me doesn’t make myself plain sometimes.
They're reserved for you. Will email shortly.
Our culture makes a big deal out of being detail-oriented, but if you do it too much, you're "sperging" and if you get angry about little things, then you're "petty" and "small-minded," and if you have a problem with this state of affairs, it means you're some kind of autistic robot who doesn't "get" people.
Amen and amen. I’ve learned the hard way that there is a balance, even without the added context of dealing with the world at large. Worrying about too much of the small shit will drive you insane, especially if you’re neurodivergent.
“Neurodivergent”
I keep seeing this word more and more, often used by people I know to be perfectly ordinary. Obviously if you’re on the autism spectrum or other diagnosed condition, it’s one thing, but otherwise it seems to be the latest trend amongst the attention seeking up there with a gluten allergy or gender dysphoria. Average-ass people desperately clamoring for something that makes them “unique”, or in this case, justifies their relative lack of intelligence.
Or am I misreading the room?
You’ve got a point… I do see it being used more often as another “check engine light” in the race toward the bottom known as intersectionality. The more idiot lights you have illuminated, the more valid your opinion, which leads to a vicious crying wolf syndrome. In my case, I am actually on the autism spectrum, but I can see where my legitimate usage of the word gets lost in the noise of “but I’M neurodivergent because [insert incoherent word salad here]!”
You’ll love the Elexes. They’re a significant upgrade from ATH-M50’s. I’ve had them for 3-4 years without ever feeling any real desire to replace them. If you don’t have a headphone amp, I’d highly recommend picking one up, even if it’s something small.
Damn, beat me to em. Hope you like them, post a review!
The more I learn about Mr. Arutunoff; the stronger the realization I want to have a drink with him. Sounds like I should add Mr. Kochanowski to the list.
…and me.
When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
And so do I.
come by any time! karen and i collect cognacs and hardly drink!
I see you ran that Cunningham at the PVGP once upon a time. Any chance you are attending this weekend?
nope, doggone it...continuing estate sales and depression that karen's gone; selling all the old cars and bikes. pittsburgh's absolutely wonderful. anybody remember--was it the park race in philly? marc gerstein and i would talk about it at scca conventions. back when they actually HAD them. jeepers!
Sorry to hear that.
My deepest condolences.
I’ll be there Saturday; afterwards my buddy and I will raise a drink in honor of you and Karen.
I would love that Morgan but I don't have a big enough checkbook or an understanding enough wife. I hope it finds a worthy home.
You're on Dave.
Likewise.
The NER SCCA has an outstanding site on the run ways of an old air force base that’s also used for police driver training. The runways and taxiways naturally allow fun, higher speed layouts with decent run off area. If you end up off course, there is truly nothing to hit - except for the course workers.
You try to stand in a safe location but with slaloms it’s possible for cars to go off in either direction. Nobody has ever been hit that I’ve seen but people have had to run out of the way of an off-course car before.
It’s something that always made me uncomfortable. But it’s also a risk that we accepted by being there and signing the damned waivers.
We should be honest about the risks involved in any motorsports activity. We should also be allowed to accept them and participate anyways.
If I know the SCCA, this incident will definitely create new rules for course design. Rest in peace to the two drivers involved.
I can also echo your statement about joining the SCCA! Volunteering at club races is a ton of fun and great way for racing outsiders to get into it.
You would THINK that in an effort to avoid these problems that the people running them would enforce the rules and not just Look The Other Way.
And putting the porta-potties out past the finish line? In a straight line? Yeah, somebody needs to be sued into oblivion for being an utter moron. That or charged with criminal negligence.
As for looking the other way, look at the Reno Air Races where pilots actually get killed on a regular basis. The 'look the other way' culture there is strong. There have been a number of serious incidents and accidents where they completely looked the other way. They're even still making excuses for a crash that killed ten people when it was clearly the fault of the pilot - who I was a FAN OF, but as a guy who used to work in flight test, you don't make the world/sport/product/industry safer by making excuses.
I used to belong to a street bike (motorcycle) racing group where we had a thing you could sign up for, and basically it said: If I fuck up and get killed, please tell everyone else just how I fucked up so they don't repeat my mistake.
I bet that wouldn't get any signers these days. Nobody ever wants to admit that they made a mistake or screwed up or did something stupid anymore. Now it's always somebody else's fault.
Personal responsibility.
What a concept!
I wouldn’t say the Warbird community is one that says don’t talk about it. The groups I have worked with are the exact opposite. Especially with the money and time involved. Cleaner and more professional than most NASCAR teams. Some of the ride operators maybe but when you have multiple licenses to loose and the Federal Aviation Regulations indicate what needs to be reported it is all out there.
Don’t know why the racing crews keep it secret. More to learn from issues so it doesn’t happen again. I read the NTSB reposts from all crashes not out of morbid fascination but to see what happens and what can be done to prevent the problem. Our flight club goes over them. We all talk about the incidents. Especially for the types of aircraft we fly. It makes you better. Why repeat someone else’s mistakes when I can make my own.
One of the things I enjoy is going over pertinent accident with students. Remember when you were slow and uncoordinated on the base to final turn? Here is why we don’t do that. Go over an NTSB report with them for the same aircraft and then practice the same thing at altitude. Drills the point home.
SCCA would do better to record and share than to run and hide. Self regulate or you get crushed. Last thing I want to see is for SCCA and groups like it to disappear. That is a loss for us all.
Ah, but a LOT of the warbird community IS like that.
Remember that B-17 that crashed? Not the recent one that got hit by another airplane because if you say ANYTHING about the bullshit that goes on with the Commemorative Air Force they throw your ass out the door. (and there's a LOT there that needs to be talked about because they're incredibly unsafe these days).
I'm talking about the one in New England, where the Pilot was the Chief Mechanic and who really WASN'T Qualified to fly it, for all the hours he had in it, which he proved by turning a minor problem into a major one, because he hadn't the first fucking CLUE about how to deal with problems. So he crashed and killed a whole bunch of people because they'd been keeping secrets (I flew on that airplane as a passenger about 9 years prior to the accident - there were a few questionable things back then, but I thought they had exemptions - found out later they didn't).
Then there was that b-24 I think? That crashed in California because again, pilot didn't know what the fuck he was doing and decided he'd show off a little. And everyone doesn't talk about the pilots doing stupid shit in million dollar airplanes that they don't own.
There are dozens of warbird crashes out there that happened because the pilot didn't listen to what he was told, and then everyone kept quiet about it. We lost our chief test pilot at Grumman that way.
So yeah, I've seen a lot of it. I've also heard more than a few race pilots bitch, loudly, about some of the shit that was going on. Famous guys like Tiger and a few others.
Hell, I saw a pilot turf and destroy a voodoo because no one had ever bothered to tell him the facts of life about centrifugal compressor jet engines (which I've got about a hundred hours in). I talked to the pilot later and asked him if he knew about X and not to do it. He said no one ever told him. So I told him. Too bad it was after he blew up the engine by doing X and almost killed himself.
Yeah, all the 'old guys' who know are timing out. No one reads the manuals and if you got the money, you can buy a nice new racing jet (used to only cost 125K, now they're a little bit more) and go out there and suddenly get yourself into a whoooole lot of shit (and die in a big fireball seen it TWICE now) because jets don't fly like props AT ALL. But no one wants to teach these guys that, or pull their racing license when they won't listen.
The guy that crashed and almost killed me at the races? There was a problem with his plane before it 'broke'. I could SEE it as he flew by on the last lap. He HAD to have known. But he decided to press on anyway. Do or DIE. Well, he died. So did ten other folks, some of whom I knew.
Did anybody MENTION this after the NTSB report came out?
Nope. Even thought it was written in the report for all to see.
Yeah, they keep way too many secrets these days. Because telling Mr. Moneybags that he's a f'in asshole with no training and he's not a fighter pilot but instead a danger to all those around you will get you fired and mabe even blacklisted - because his money is FAR more important that YOU are. Or even the people he might kill when he crashes and burns.
Sorry for the rant, but this is a touchy subject with me. Money and idiots have taken over the warbird community. Most of the old guys, like I said, aren't there anymore. I've also noticed that some of the really good 'up and comers' who got trained by the 'old men' and who DO know better? They're all stepping back. Can't say as I blame 'em either.
My sister was acquainted a bit with someone in the New England crash, the sibling of a friend.
I hate air shows. Your mileage may vary, but I have no idea if a pilot is a chucklehead or if the equipment is up to snuff. Static displays are cool but the crowds are way to too close when the aircraft are in the air. I live about a mile from an airport that does air shows every couple of years. The landing pattern on a regular day goes over my house. Sometimes I can see a pilot picking his nose.
When the circus hits my town, I usually go for a 3 - 4 hour ride somewhere else.
I always enjoyed the fly days that Paul Allen’s warbird collection had in the summers before he passed. The planes were flown very gently usually by Steve Hinton or his son. I think Paul told him to just do passes down the runway at KPAE with lazy turns at the end. It was cool to see a lot of rare stuff actually be a plane. I guess some Walmart heir bought the collection so I imagine it’s remaining time in Everett is short. They haven’t had a fly day since 2019.
To be fair, the Walmart dude saved it from Paul's creepy sister. Paul was a creeper too but at least he's dead. A lot of stuff has been memory holed with those two.
"Air show?! Buzzcut Alabamians flying their whiz-jets to the strains of 'Rock You Like A Hurricane?!' What kind of country-fried rube is still impressed by THAT?!"
As popularity is wont to do.
Those are the ones selling rides NOT the racers at Reno or air racers in general. Totally different. But understand exactly what you mean.
It’s not hours accumulated but how you approach it. Have refused to check people out in planes or ride with them due to their attitude.
Some people with money are that way with cars, boats, and submersible craft (I hear deep down that Stockton Rush is crushing it!) wait too soon? But then again you have Trevor Jacob https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Jacob who crashes his plane and did it for clicks. I can’t stand em. Makes it harder for the rest of us. All hubris and a part of human nature. Rules apply to others. Well physics is a bitch and doesn’t care.
Was trained by those old guys. Trying to pass it on. Train someone to be safe and knows how to fly. Not just pass a check ride. See enough of that from the zero to hero programs that are being cranked out. When the automation stops I don’t want to fly raw data with them. They can’t fall back on the aviate, navigate,communicate.
You weren’t ranting but it happens everywhere.
Tell joke or do not.
There is no too soon.
I thought the comedian Cody Woods nailed it. He was doing A show right after they had announced the sub was missing. He started in on the joke and everyone started ohhhhh ing and groaning. He immediately told them hey wait at this point they’re still alive. It’s not too soon.
Gotta be careful to remember that airing your dirty laundry and "transparency" are not the same thing.
Very quick note on Imola WSBK for Mr. Sod (the Silent one):
Watching Bautista rolling in the gravel in Race 2 brought back (bad) memories of 2019.
WSBK is a series I don't have the pass for!
I will be watching the highlights, though.
Here is where I chide you for not watching WSBK— but paying attention to “baggers”! I could possibly give you a pass for one of those transgressions; but certainly not both of them!
(He said with a wink.)
I haven’t marshaled in two years (all road circuits), but still have my SCCA license. I’ll be looking very closely at what, if any, reaction the SCCA has to this unfortunate incident.
In the meantime, us racer chasers also have to make noise… yes, we sign a waiver to be there; and yes, we accept that this isn’t a riskless hobby (and thank the good Lord above, else I wouldn’t be *living*!). Our observations on track absolutely can and do affect the outcomes of races; we ought to expect the same treatment with our safety concerns.
Autocross is in a tough spot - it has all the noise complaint issues of road courses, drag strips and shooting ranges but even worse because the sites are mostly not used for autox, and tend to be in less remote areas. Add to that the site owners main source of revenue can't be autox and there's really zero incentive for them to rent sites out even ignoring the safety liability side of things.
As far as the risk goes - I don't think the desire to downplay risks or sweep things under the rug is something that only happens in the SCCA (Although they certainly are aggressive about it). I've seen cars totalled at every form of motorsport I've particpated in from autocross up to time trials across multiple clubs, and the personal risk is rarely seriously discussed. People's priority always seems to be to generate interest/participation of new people. I completely understand from the organizer's perspective, but it does seem like a hobby wide problem.
Related - finally got my car fully back together and made it out to an autox on Saturday and HDPE on Sunday and low and behold, saw a car get smashed up (To be fair it was at the DE).
I may be up on the roof without a fall harness, but no one's shooting at me.
Safety is a matter of perspective.
Thanks for raising awareness on this, Jack. I had no idea how much risk exists in autocross, and my eyes have now been opened.
Condolences to the families of the deceased.
On a serious note, a lack of available facilities, combined with the risk-averse culture that makes the rules, is why so many people street race.
It also leads to a pervasive Nobody Saw Nothin culture in the races, in part because of the very real danger of busybodies using ANY pretense to agitate for shutting down a track.
Wanted - 3D Designer for small projects -
I'm looking to have some small trays made for glassware and possibly kitchen gadgets. Also need help getting a kitchen vent fan transition and exhaust vent into cad so a sheet metal guy can make what i need. Ice Age, if this is your thing, let me know
(If this post is not user classifieds please delet this)
You might be able to do it yourself with FreeCAD. There are lots of tutorials on YouTube. With something like a vent transition you could probably do it with just using FreeCAD's primitive shapes (cylinders, cubes, tubes etc.).
Great tip - thanks Ronnie.
I'd be willing to take a swing at it. Making prints is something I've done professionally, and I do appreciate some highly-designed home goods. Do you have sketches/dimensions or a general idea of what you're looking for?
email donkeyhkonger@proton.me .
I have dimensions, and what I (at one time) thought were sensible sketches.