Funnily enough, I find the latest (as in, the one launched in Shanghai this week) Cayenne Hybrid an intriguing proposition, rather than “incontrovertible proof of idiocy.”
Despite the abject corniness of the Porsche brand of late, they are pouring development resources (money and time) into their passenger cars, and the products occupy an enviable market position as the most premium / sporty vehicle in their respective category that you can (probably) drive to a corporate job.
The hybrid offers 50+ miles of electric only range in a sportive package. Presumably each trim level - base, S, GTS, Turbo (S) - will receive the hybrid. Cayenne turbo GT - which IS a nonsensical car - will not.
You'd still have to be a dipshit to buy one, and I say this as someone who once ran a brand-new 6-speed GTS. Back then we thought Cayennes were going to be exceptions to the Porsche story, rather than the rule.
Sherman, I had the same reaction. For the Cayenne, I can't justify the price premium over the X5 xDrive45e. But once you are firmly in "I need a family hauler but the wife vetoes minivans" land these mid-large plug-in CUVs are attractive propositions. I don't know why the Cayenne should be singled out for hate.
Jack detests both the modern Porsche brand AND the product set.
I have come to find the brand itself nauseating, but in my opinion the products remain exceptional vs. their peers. A lot of this is due to robust pricing power and significant sales volume driving revenue, which affords generous development budgets. And where do you think the sharpest Porsche engineers are working these days? On the passenger cars that compete with all of the other luxury brands, or on the comparatively modest sales volumes that the two door sports cars achieve? The former, in my view.
Doubtless part of the ennui I feel with the brand is that I became a Porsche enthusiast as a child, watching 911 variants race at Road Atlanta. The modern company is a totally different enterprise, obviously. I have driven 911s for 11+ years; I bought a 993 with my first bonus out of school, then a 997 GT3, then a 991 GT3. In my time as an owner, the brand has mutated into a luxury lifestyle brand, and many of the brand’s current and future customers are unlike Jack, or me, or anyone in this comment section. They want the most premium, most “sporty” vehicle in a given class that a respectable white collar W-2 employee can drive to work without raising too many eyebrows. You can roll up to the office in a Cayenne, but almost certainly not a Bentayga or a Urus. Or a 911 - even a GT3 (RS) with a big wing - but not a Ferrari. Etc.
I never had any reverence for the brand. I've never owned one. The company was founded by assholes and had some real clunker products that were obscured by the greatness of the original 911 design. So I don't feel much emotion about it being a lifestyle brand today. I'm just evaluating the products on what I see as their own merits. The Cayenne obviously is pretty unsatisfying if you're expecting sports cars but it seems like a pretty nice entry in the pork/luxury CUV class, and a PHEV powertrain just makes it better for my use case.
"founded by assholes" I mean henry ford literally owned slaves and was a definite jew-hater. So I don't think you can account for histories and stuff. It's been 100 years. But yeah porsche in the 21st century has become the car for the "I want a ferrari to showcase my wealth but I want to prove to people that I can drive properly, so I buy a 911 turbo" guy.
Based on what I've seen and experienced lately, I'm inclined to agree with Jack. I've never owned a Porsche, but I've always been fascinated with the brand since I was a kid ogling my buddy's dad's brand new G-body 911. Unfortunately for me, I was "imprinted" and resolved to buy a 911 one day. Fast forward by enough time for a broke-ass kid to grow up and make decent money, and you have me attempting to order a 911 in late 2020. Of course, with all the supply constraints, no dealer I contacted was even remotely interested in taking a 17th waitlist deposit for a Carrera S. While I obviously don't despise the product line, I'm starting to get the sense that Porsche is attempting to become a "1-percenter" brand - at least as far as their sports cars are concerned. The rest of us, cash or not, get to beg for the scraps off the production line or buy used at inflated prices. Fuck that... I'd rather take that 911 money, buy a manual Supra AND a house in the neighborhood I grew up in.
That experience is on the dealers, who are generally terrible, in my experience.
There are two dealers in Atlanta, and both of them have condescended to me (when I was younger) or done ridiculous stuff like return a car to me after service without the dashboard backlight bulb plugged in (993) or try to convince me I needed new wiper blades on a GT3 with 1,200 miles.
The battery puts a big dent in cargo space and therefore the family hauler part of the mission. I realize the first owner is the priority, but when a battery with only 50 miles range in ideal conditions wears out, it becomes quite the anchor.
As for the Cayenne I found the older one (2011) we test drove excellent evidence of the automotive media making shit up. Nearly everything about it was the opposite of what I had read. Everyone claims its tight inside. Maybe they missed that the back seat moves? I'm 6' and could easily sit in front of a rear-facing car seat. I was unimpressed by the interior. It was heavy and I felt every pound while driving it. It's possible the example I drove was broken, but the ride was harsher than my e92 m3. In a family truckster - wtf. Point is, everything about it was the opposite of media-based expectations.
Does the battery in the Cayenne really cut into cargo space? BMW's is under the rear seat and there is no cargo space difference between a PHEV X5 and a gas-only one. If Porsche's is not the same, that's a big demerit.
We were looking at 2014 models when we were in the market. On paper the Cayenne does lose a few cubic ft with the hybrid set up. Its surprisingly hard to find specs on the competing x5 hybrid, but I remember it raising the cargo floor by about 6".
Packaging improvements would be nice. If the battery is now under the seat, where did the gas tank go?
I have one of these things, let me give my review and my thought process.
First, context. I leased a 2018 JL Wrangler when they were announced. At the time I commuted about 6 miles each way on surface streets, and my Sport S was fairly loaded, with about a $45k sticker. It replaced a 100k mile Acura sedan. It was probably the most fun way to spend $400/mo on a lease. I drove it happily for about 28k miles over 3 years, and then a family member bought out the lease. Because of this, I kept the soft top (I had bought the dual top package and he didn’t care about a soft top). I ordered a 2021 Wrangler Rubicon 4xe in June 2021 and received it in July. At the time, mine stickered for almost exactly $60k (Rubicon, hard top, cold weather, towing, front camera, maybe one or two other options of minimal consequence. No active safety crap). I ordered through a leasing broker ($400) and received 9% off including a Tread Lightly discount ($100 membership). I then received the $7500 tax credit as a cap cost reduction (believe it’s $3750 now, only if you lease or make under $300k as a married couple). Between those two discounts, and with nothing but the taxes down, my payment is $420/mo (3/36 lease). So you can talk “$60k Wrangler” all day long, but they cost peanuts to lease, and in my opinion, leasing them is the best way because they rapidly turn into crap so you want to get rid of them by lease end. From 10 minutes on Jeep.com, it appears a 2023 4xe Rubicon equipped identically to mine would cost you $66,325 ($6300 price increase) and an automatic gas Rubicon equipped the same would run you $58,530. That’s a $7800 premium for the 4xe, which shrinks to just over $4k if you qualify for the tax credit, or lease.
Why a Wrangler? Well, as stated, I think it’s about the most interesting daily driver type vehicle available for the money in terms of fun, if you live in a suburban wasteland like I do in Chicagoland with zero fun roads. When I leased my 4xe, I was working from home full time, and my former commute was about 1 mile to a train station where I commuted to downtown. So almost all of my driving was around town, the school run, groceries, etc. Basically never venturing further than 10 miles from my house on a daily basis, never using gas, rarely going on the highway. As an around town vehicle, the Wrangler is fantastic. It has a short turning radius, it easily hops curbs, you basically can’t curb the Rubicon wheels, and in EV mode it’s silent and easy. Plus it hauls stuff, has moderate towing capacity (I used mine to tow a rented trailer to move about 5 blocks as well as launching jet skis and towing the occasional snowmobile), is great in bad weather. Also, it never looks out of place anywhere. I can drive it into a rough neighborhood, I can drive it to my country club, I can drive it to a nice restaurant, no one cares. I get more positive comments in my Jeeps than in anything else. And, I love taking the doors and top (I reused my soft top on this Jeep) off in good weather, from about April to about October. I also have access to a family cabin about 350 miles away, where we have 100 acres of undeveloped hunting property so the Jeep is more than capable enough for the offroading we do that for hunting and land maintenance. The Rubicon is wild overkill, but I chose that model because A) I hate the 20” wheels and low-profile tires on the other 4xe models, B) I hate leather in a Jeep or any vehicle I intend to use topless, and C) why the hell not? It is fun. Mine is basically all stock aside from some basic things like auxiliary lighting and a GMRS radio I added to it.
How has it been? Okay. On its best days, I love the thing. I love taking the doors off and cruising around on summer days, and I love the feeling when you drive it through a heavy snow storm, probably how it feels to have a 9” dong walking through the locker room, I’d imagine. However, I also changed jobs, and now I have a 35 mile one-way highway commute 2-3 days a week, and for that the Wrangler is terrible. It’s loud, it sucks on the highway, the hybrid system doesn’t work well at highway speeds, and it just isn’t fun. I’ve also had some problems, on Valentine’s Day the hybrid stuff crapped out and I needed a coolant heater (common issue) which took me until last Friday (2 months to the day) to get repaired due to the parts wait. It also has a FORM mode where the system doesn’t like to use full electric drive under about 30*F, which is about 4-5-6 months a year here in Chicagoland.
Would I buy it again? No. Prices have gone up significantly, and I believe to lease mine today would be closer to $650/$700. I don’t see the value there. I don’t really want to buy mine out either. I have my eye on another sedan, maybe a TLX-S, an Alfa Giulia, maybe an Integra-S if I could get one. However, if the world is in the same state next summer where these are all $750+ to lease, I might have “no choice” but to just buy out my lease and wait it out. I can get an extended warranty and my residual is around $38k, that’s still not a terrible deal for what I’d be buying (mine is currently way under miles by about 4k). I might sit on it for another year and give the world a chance to stabilize. It’s not my first choice though.
Anyways, there’s a little context for you. The price can be a lot cheaper than you think, and if you don’t do a lot of highway driving, they are great daily drivers, and offer a ton of fun if you take advantage of it (off roading, topless/doorless driving). Ours shares garage space with my S2000 and my wife’s MDX, so really, we have a very well rounded garage with a sports car, comfortable long distance cruiser, and the Jeep. Sorry for the long post.
Interesting that you dislike the highway performance. A friend of mine has one and loves the fact that she doesn't need to use any gas except on longer weekend trips. I also drove a tester on the freeway extensively and managed to use up the whole EV range without the engine coming on, and after that it was a fairly well-behaved hybrid. This was a 2022 model, so they may have fixed some of the bugs. That 2.0 is still an awful motor in a Jeep, though.
Apr 21, 2023·edited Apr 21, 2023Liked by Jack Baruth
It's a completely bonkers vehicle. I ordered it as a bit of a lark, because the dealer did not require a deposit, and they also promised no markup. What did I have to loose?
To my surprise it was actually built, and they honored the price. My trade had ridiculous equity thanks to the crazy used car market, so how could I pass it up?
I drive it nearly every day. That's probably not so good for Barret-Jackson 2050.
This. I continually see cars on Bring A Trailer like Miatas with 5000 miles on them. What on earth is the point? 30 years of opportunity for fun wasted, right down the gurgly tubes.
Then again, IIRC there was a fellow on BaT recently who sold his first-generation Viper. With 200K miles on it. Now there is a guy you could have coffee with.
I just passed up a 2009 HD XR1200 with less than 1100 miles on it. It looked like it had been left in a shed. You’d think you’d put 80 miles a year on a bike just pushing it around the garage.
I’m certainly not a “must preserve my car for the next guy” person, but to some extent I understand. I drive my hobby sports car maybe 1500-2k miles a year. There are just so many days where circumstances, weather, and vehicular needs allow for or justify a 2-seat convertible. I have zero desire to keep miles off the car, but I also have zero desire to drive it in the cold, extreme heat, rain, etc when I have a more comfortable vehicle for those conditions, and I’m often hauling both kids or cargo, both of which preclude the sports car. Mine would have minimal miles on it if I hadn’t daily driven it the first 3-4 years I owned it.
I have a 2021 Wrangler 392 and I love it. 13 mpg or so, and tons of power. My local dealer won’t stop calling me asking to trade it in on a new wrangler since they have a ton in stock, none of which are 392, and I laugh at them and say why would I want a v-6 or 4 cylinder wrangler. Compared to my 2017 Wrangler Sahara, the 2021 392 is a luxury beast. When I traded the 2017 Sahara I got $35,000, having paid $31,500 plus tax and driven it 50,000 miles.
I heard there was a parking garage someplace in Europe that collapsed because the EV's all weight a LOT MORE than their gas powered cousins. Usually a half ton to a ton more, because batteries are heavy.
So not surprised to find out this was heavier.
For me the limiting factor isn't space, got lots of that. The limiting factor is insurance which charges you the same if you're only driving one car at a time or if you're driving 10 cars at a time. Which of course is a huge fucking scam. I remember way back when I lived in Oregon that they could only charge you for driving one of your cars at a time, so you effectively paid a 'service fee' for each additional car. So of course I had 6 plus two motorcycles.
Now I have to insure each of them individually and you don't really get enough of a discount to run everything through the same insurance company (especially when a lot of companies won't touch bikes anymore).
I DO wonder if I could use an EV as a 'tesla power wall'? then it would pay to have one, and just let my solar system keep it charged and tap off of it when power goes out....
That's bidirectional charging. People have been using Teslas that way for years -- and it's a back-and-forth battle with Tesla, which keeps revising their software to lock them out! No surprise to hear that the company will be selling that feature soon.
F-150 Lightnings are "bi" from birth, as you'd suspect from looking at them.
Since I have a LOT of solar power I don't use, I'd be a great F-150 Lightning customer. I'd just rather suck off a horse than be seen in one.
I was kind of amazed when I transitioned to 100% work from home and Nationwide decided that zero commute and a total of less than 5k per year on all my cars combined didn't result in some sort of low millage discount.
Youre amazed that when something bad happens insurance companies rake you over the coals but when their costs decrease, you see none of the savings? I’m amazed at your optimism!
I sold a bike because of insurance and currently selling two cars. Partially because of insurance and registration and partially cause im sick of dropping 2k every time the bmw hiccups. Something like $800 bucks a year just to have an extra car and $500 a year just to have a bike. It adds up.
My insurance provider attempted to DOUBLE the rate on cars last year. No incidents, no tickets, more catalytic converter thefts in the area but not on my block yet.
I changed providers and it was ~60% the price for equivalent coverage and even if they hike over time that's a long while before parity.
Fuckin' racket state mandated insurance grumble grumble
My homeowners went up 20% which means we raise prices at work as well and we get the grumbles as well. I like my agent so I didn’t whop around to save $100
I’ve griped enough about annual premium increases for my car stuff that my Nationwide agent dinked around and tried requoting a new policy! Voila! $125 savings per six-month renewal! 👍
The insurers really don't like a use case that doesn't fit neatly into their box. Geico recently dropped me, after 16 years with just one minor claim, when someone double-checked my existing policy information and realized that I was garaging one car in a different zip code (my mom's place across the lake from me). No attempt to accommodate, no consideration of my lengthy history, just "take that car off the policy or we drop you." Fortunately Progressive was happy to pick up the slack, for all four cars, not just one.
USAA dropped us a year ago out of the blue, so I took all of it (auto , renters, and homeowners) to Progressive. The car insurance was *1/3* the cost of USAA.
My renters' and homeowners' (why I have both is a complicated story) are both with Travelers. I've been very happy with them; premiums are low and the one claim I had, for the contents a piece of luggage stolen during an international trip, was handled quickly and without drama for what I thought an appropriate amount.
If you want a "practical" wrangler for daily duty it's called a Toyota 4Runner. Drives almost as shitty, gets bad mileage for no good reason, but it's much quieter over the road, secure, and you won't be on a first name basis with your service advisor.
In a world where even the most vanilla crossover will cruise at 100mph with 1 finger on the wheel for hours on end, there is something to be said for the experience a wrangler provides. They can never be called boring.
Apr 22, 2023·edited Apr 22, 2023Liked by Jack Baruth
I spent a lot of time with these in my former job and even had one as a company car. These are the #1 selling PHEV now.
I concur that they're fine to drive, capable and reasonably comfortable. I did a landscaping project once where I needed approx 4 cubic yards of dirt. I was able to tow my utility trailer back and forth to the dirt place a few times all in EV mode which was kind of neat.
The worst part about them is the customers. In cold weather the engine runs often to assist with cabin heat when the electric heater can't do it. This pisses people off who think they bought a BEV Jeep, so they force the engine off with the little blue buttons to the left of the steering wheel. This doesn't allow the engine to reach operating temp thus fuel dilution in the oil builds up fast. Theres an algorithm that tracks it then forces the engine on into "fuel and oil refresh mode" until its satisfied dilution is under 20%...If one's drive cycle doesn't involve much highway, this mode can stay in practically indefinitely, further infuriating those customers who bring them to the dealer thinking they're broken. This was seriously the #1 quality issue at the time.. There was a task force, and you should have heard the clownshoe solutions. "Put a block heater in it"...uhh, the breaker will trip at most customers homes if they try and plug in to charge and use a block heater at the same time guys...
I occasionally think about this and then consider that they'd think that about 99% of the car. I also think about the parallels between engineers of the early 70s and now, where they were basically staring down a lost decade of doing nothing but compliance cars.
My neighbor across the street got one of these and being a good suburbanite, ran over his charger in the garage. So he doesn't really use the EV part of it. He told me his cost about $65K, but it has the nice ruby red paint.
I haven't told him my new Audi S4 loaded was just a little more than his Jeep. I get 30MPG on the highway with my 350HP. Just sayin.
As to the inherent/historic "repairability" of Wranglers, I'd say the hybrid stuff throws repairability/rebuildability right out the window, to say nothing of the current state of 50-60 black box modules communicating across 3-4 high speed networks, with (in the case of FCA/Stellantis) Secure Vehicle Gateway paywalling even fairly committed tinkerers from having bidirectional control using their chinese scanners. Now, I could see a Cuba-like future where there's a cottage industry of tearing out all of the aforementioned with a more basic harness, and installing a Mahindra style basic diesel engine under the hood (or maybe a rebuilt old 4.0L).
about 12 years ago i drove a hiace diesel manual on vacation in the norwegian fjord region. huge inside and a lot of fun including the handrake hill starts. not a lot of wranglers in norway.
Thanks for the review, as I was one of the folks asking about it. I'm actually rather surprised by your mostly positive impressions.
I'm toying with getting a Wrangler because I want a garageable utility vehicle that isn't a crossover. I don't want a 4Runner because it's old as crap and I already had one. And if one could actually get a hold of a new Bronco, I still don't want one because Ford has already failed me twice. So that pretty much leaves the Wrangler.
I test drove a low-option, two door Willys V6 a couple of years ago. I wanted to like it but it was just too crude. I suspect part of the problem the lousy Firestone mud tires they put on that model. A higher-trim 4 door seems like a more livable option - Sahara would be the smart buy, but I'm the sort of asshole who'd buy the Rubicon just for the looks.
I'd just assume skip the 4xe, as it's needless extra cost and complexity. But trying to find a Jeep spec'ed to your desires on a dealer lot is a maddening experience. The 4xe has the Selec-Trac full-time transfer case standard - which is a no-brainer option in foul-weather country, but no dealer has one with it in inventory, and if they do, it's missing heated seats and remote start. At some point, I just say fuck it and don't care how much it costs to get everything I want.
If all goes according to plan, my work commute will be all surface streets and within the 20 mile electric range. The road noise and shitty dynamics will be secondary, as I have another car better suited for distance travel. I'll also have a garage setup for an easy charge install. So I wouldn't at all hate the plug-in capability.
It's still a rather stupid vehicle, whose off road attributes I'll never take full advantage of, and who's top-down attributes I'll undoubtedly take far less advantage of than I think I will. But it's got character, which is more than I can say for 98% of the other choices out there.
Having owned a TRD Pro for the past 7 years, I'm pretty sure the "superannuated piece of garbage" bit is the truck's most endearing quality. I can drive the thing on any terrain I find out here in the desert, fill it with an amount of guns that would give the Taliban pause (or photo gear, depending on what I want to shoot), drive back through the shittiest neighborhoods and park it at Mastro's. No one bats an eye. There are hundreds of them in this town. At this point, I keep thinking about replacing it, but all of its shortcomings are mitigated by other vehicles we own. It is worth about 85% what I paid for it, so maybe it is time to cash out.
Do you live someplace where it snows? Does your wife want to deal with a part-time 4wd transfer case, or are you willing to shell out 50k for a Limited with AWD?
As a family vehicle, compared to a generic crossover, it's worse in every way. Plus the interior sucks and it's slow.
SE PA. Very little snow. She’s been looking at a SR5. I think. 46k sticker, I believe. Her friend has one and she seems to like it. I like the idea of body on frame. And I’d like to keep it forever, basically.
I rented a Taco for a couple of days and it was like a time machine. If I was the Taliban or needed to fight the Taliban it would be great but other than that what a hunk of junk. I can't believe people commute in that brick.
BUT OMG TOYOTA RELIABILITY! I CAN HAND IT DOWN TO MY GREAT-GRANDKIDS!!!
Nevermind that you won't keep it any longer than you would have a competing product.
Almost everything Toyota makes is a chintzy, class-trailing piece of shit. Not to mention ugly as fuck. But people have bought into the hype, so there's no incentive for the company to stop sucking so hard.
The fanbois say it's because they're more durable and rear discs are overkill for stopping power.
Oddly enough, the only issue I've ever had with rear discs was on...a Toyota 4Runner. Caliper froze up and I caught it just before it trashed the rotor. Probably caused by the other Achilles heel of that platform: corrosion.
I took the switch back to drums to be a tacit admission of serial incompetence.
Jeeps are weird in that you will generally get a discount on an order. I ordered both of mine exactly how I wanted them, they took about 4-6 weeks to come in (August ‘18 and June/July ‘21) and I got a substantial discount versus what I would have had to pay for something that wasn’t exactly what I wanted off the lot.
Bronco is the answer, Ford’s incessant issues aside. It is *so* much nicer to drive than a Wrangler. You can find one for MSRP if you’re patient, and they are worth it.
I have more than one customer who bought their daughter a Jeep. Said daughters gave them back to Mom when they were no longer just driving to be seen. All it took was an out of town matriculation.
LOL $58k for a tractor that wasn't born in Morris Garage. I was expecting Jack to really trash this thing but he's probably correct about it being well adjusted to our modern society, more's the pity.
My first thought, last thought, and constant thought while operating it was
FUCK THIS PIECE OF SHIT
which is why I wanted to be careful what I thought and wrote afterwards. Any time you have a reaction that one-sided, it usually means you're missing something, or the product simply isn't for you, which is the case here. I have a Roxor and an F-250, so I don't need a Wrangler of any kind.
Apr 22, 2023·edited Apr 22, 2023Liked by Jack Baruth
You drove the worst example of the current generation. Even in that form it's still better than the best of the previous generations. The ergonomics and driving position are nice (for a Wrangler). The modern infotainment is well done, particularly in comparison to whatever Ford is doing.
That being said, they sell tons of these things for a reason. Take the top and doors off it's a different vehicle. Particularly in 392 form.
The solid axle remains at the request of the enthusiasts. Unlike other brands, Jeep, at least while they still can, is catering to the customer base that put them where they are. There is something to be said for that.
I purchased the 392 not only for what I thought was a good deal, but also because Stellantis had the audacity to build it.
It also helps to know the powers that be really don't want me to have one. After all, don't we all only want what we can't have?
My buddy has a four door Willys that he loves. I’ve ridden around with him a few times. With the top and doors on, it’s ok but nothing that I would be interested in. It’s cramped, rough, and loud. With the top and doors off, below 50MPH, I see the appeal. Then I went on the highway with him in the same configuration and felt like I had done a few rounds with Mike Tyson. My ears were ringing for hours after.
I guess it is a Jeep thing and they’re right. I don’t understand.
"Any time you have a reaction that one-sided, it usually means you're missing something, or the product simply isn't for you, which is the case here."
That's extremely fair-minded and probably correct. And yet sometimes "FUCK THIS PIECE OF SHIT" is a useful thing to hear, especially when applied to something everyone loves. Be specific, but don't hesitate to tell us what you think.
I had the same reaction to a Charger GT (the one with the V6 but the fancy bodywork from the Scat Pack) when I rented it in 2018. The strength of the reaction surprised me and the reasons for it still inform my car choices today.
I rented a brand new (8 miles on the odometer and plastic on the controls) 4XE Rubicon last month from Fox rental car at LAX for 25 bucks a day. The best western on sunset plaza had chargers so I was able to charge it with no issues. In 6 days I drove all over Los Angeles; from WeHo to Malibu to Little Tokyo resulting in 350 miles of travel. The day before I departed I topped the Jeep off for 25 bucks at 5 bucks a gallon. I thought it was a really nice ride. Way nicer than the two JKs I owned a decade ago. My only complaint was it felt slightly under braked. Credit this to the weight I guess. The sole reason I wouldn’t own one is the prospect of paying 65k for a wrangler is one rubicon I just can’t cross.
Unlike most people who own Rubicons, I've actually been on the Rubicon... well, only as far as Cadillac Hill. Dirt Bikes don't do well on portions of that trail.
Which of course begs the question: How did someone get a 60's model Cadillac that far up a trail that you need a rock crawler for?
Answer: because the government put those rocks there! The original trail built by a very famous naturalist was made for cars! But the greenies couldn't stand the idea of people being able to view nature.
60K, for a vehicle with so many compromises in every day use? I'm flummoxed. At least the mainstream combover suppositories have reasonably decent NVH and mpg by comparison.
I wonder if the 'hybrid' sticker will get this 5000#, 20mpg pig in the HOV lane.
Nearly all Jeeps I see sport some sort of 'jeep girl' regalia.
Funnily enough, I find the latest (as in, the one launched in Shanghai this week) Cayenne Hybrid an intriguing proposition, rather than “incontrovertible proof of idiocy.”
Despite the abject corniness of the Porsche brand of late, they are pouring development resources (money and time) into their passenger cars, and the products occupy an enviable market position as the most premium / sporty vehicle in their respective category that you can (probably) drive to a corporate job.
The hybrid offers 50+ miles of electric only range in a sportive package. Presumably each trim level - base, S, GTS, Turbo (S) - will receive the hybrid. Cayenne turbo GT - which IS a nonsensical car - will not.
Except for the fact that it's dreadful looking, inside and out. The Un-Porsche.
I think the outgoing Cayenne is actually slightly better looking front and rear.
The new interior is a big step up in some aspects, although you lose the center console mounted shifter and all of the analog gauges.
You'd still have to be a dipshit to buy one, and I say this as someone who once ran a brand-new 6-speed GTS. Back then we thought Cayennes were going to be exceptions to the Porsche story, rather than the rule.
But you’d never take your precious Zuffenblob out on even a gravel road
Sherman, I had the same reaction. For the Cayenne, I can't justify the price premium over the X5 xDrive45e. But once you are firmly in "I need a family hauler but the wife vetoes minivans" land these mid-large plug-in CUVs are attractive propositions. I don't know why the Cayenne should be singled out for hate.
Jack detests both the modern Porsche brand AND the product set.
I have come to find the brand itself nauseating, but in my opinion the products remain exceptional vs. their peers. A lot of this is due to robust pricing power and significant sales volume driving revenue, which affords generous development budgets. And where do you think the sharpest Porsche engineers are working these days? On the passenger cars that compete with all of the other luxury brands, or on the comparatively modest sales volumes that the two door sports cars achieve? The former, in my view.
Doubtless part of the ennui I feel with the brand is that I became a Porsche enthusiast as a child, watching 911 variants race at Road Atlanta. The modern company is a totally different enterprise, obviously. I have driven 911s for 11+ years; I bought a 993 with my first bonus out of school, then a 997 GT3, then a 991 GT3. In my time as an owner, the brand has mutated into a luxury lifestyle brand, and many of the brand’s current and future customers are unlike Jack, or me, or anyone in this comment section. They want the most premium, most “sporty” vehicle in a given class that a respectable white collar W-2 employee can drive to work without raising too many eyebrows. You can roll up to the office in a Cayenne, but almost certainly not a Bentayga or a Urus. Or a 911 - even a GT3 (RS) with a big wing - but not a Ferrari. Etc.
I never had any reverence for the brand. I've never owned one. The company was founded by assholes and had some real clunker products that were obscured by the greatness of the original 911 design. So I don't feel much emotion about it being a lifestyle brand today. I'm just evaluating the products on what I see as their own merits. The Cayenne obviously is pretty unsatisfying if you're expecting sports cars but it seems like a pretty nice entry in the pork/luxury CUV class, and a PHEV powertrain just makes it better for my use case.
"founded by assholes" I mean henry ford literally owned slaves and was a definite jew-hater. So I don't think you can account for histories and stuff. It's been 100 years. But yeah porsche in the 21st century has become the car for the "I want a ferrari to showcase my wealth but I want to prove to people that I can drive properly, so I buy a 911 turbo" guy.
Based on what I've seen and experienced lately, I'm inclined to agree with Jack. I've never owned a Porsche, but I've always been fascinated with the brand since I was a kid ogling my buddy's dad's brand new G-body 911. Unfortunately for me, I was "imprinted" and resolved to buy a 911 one day. Fast forward by enough time for a broke-ass kid to grow up and make decent money, and you have me attempting to order a 911 in late 2020. Of course, with all the supply constraints, no dealer I contacted was even remotely interested in taking a 17th waitlist deposit for a Carrera S. While I obviously don't despise the product line, I'm starting to get the sense that Porsche is attempting to become a "1-percenter" brand - at least as far as their sports cars are concerned. The rest of us, cash or not, get to beg for the scraps off the production line or buy used at inflated prices. Fuck that... I'd rather take that 911 money, buy a manual Supra AND a house in the neighborhood I grew up in.
That experience is on the dealers, who are generally terrible, in my experience.
There are two dealers in Atlanta, and both of them have condescended to me (when I was younger) or done ridiculous stuff like return a car to me after service without the dashboard backlight bulb plugged in (993) or try to convince me I needed new wiper blades on a GT3 with 1,200 miles.
The battery puts a big dent in cargo space and therefore the family hauler part of the mission. I realize the first owner is the priority, but when a battery with only 50 miles range in ideal conditions wears out, it becomes quite the anchor.
As for the Cayenne I found the older one (2011) we test drove excellent evidence of the automotive media making shit up. Nearly everything about it was the opposite of what I had read. Everyone claims its tight inside. Maybe they missed that the back seat moves? I'm 6' and could easily sit in front of a rear-facing car seat. I was unimpressed by the interior. It was heavy and I felt every pound while driving it. It's possible the example I drove was broken, but the ride was harsher than my e92 m3. In a family truckster - wtf. Point is, everything about it was the opposite of media-based expectations.
Does the battery in the Cayenne really cut into cargo space? BMW's is under the rear seat and there is no cargo space difference between a PHEV X5 and a gas-only one. If Porsche's is not the same, that's a big demerit.
We were looking at 2014 models when we were in the market. On paper the Cayenne does lose a few cubic ft with the hybrid set up. Its surprisingly hard to find specs on the competing x5 hybrid, but I remember it raising the cargo floor by about 6".
Packaging improvements would be nice. If the battery is now under the seat, where did the gas tank go?
“the brakes are good and the tires are fair”
Love the callout. Your going to drive me to drinkin if you don’t stop driving that. Hot. Rod. Lincoln!
I thought this was another Townes Van Zandt reference.
Charlie Ryan rockabilly song that truthfully I didn’t think many people knew. Hot Rod Lincoln
Ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
I have one of these things, let me give my review and my thought process.
First, context. I leased a 2018 JL Wrangler when they were announced. At the time I commuted about 6 miles each way on surface streets, and my Sport S was fairly loaded, with about a $45k sticker. It replaced a 100k mile Acura sedan. It was probably the most fun way to spend $400/mo on a lease. I drove it happily for about 28k miles over 3 years, and then a family member bought out the lease. Because of this, I kept the soft top (I had bought the dual top package and he didn’t care about a soft top). I ordered a 2021 Wrangler Rubicon 4xe in June 2021 and received it in July. At the time, mine stickered for almost exactly $60k (Rubicon, hard top, cold weather, towing, front camera, maybe one or two other options of minimal consequence. No active safety crap). I ordered through a leasing broker ($400) and received 9% off including a Tread Lightly discount ($100 membership). I then received the $7500 tax credit as a cap cost reduction (believe it’s $3750 now, only if you lease or make under $300k as a married couple). Between those two discounts, and with nothing but the taxes down, my payment is $420/mo (3/36 lease). So you can talk “$60k Wrangler” all day long, but they cost peanuts to lease, and in my opinion, leasing them is the best way because they rapidly turn into crap so you want to get rid of them by lease end. From 10 minutes on Jeep.com, it appears a 2023 4xe Rubicon equipped identically to mine would cost you $66,325 ($6300 price increase) and an automatic gas Rubicon equipped the same would run you $58,530. That’s a $7800 premium for the 4xe, which shrinks to just over $4k if you qualify for the tax credit, or lease.
Why a Wrangler? Well, as stated, I think it’s about the most interesting daily driver type vehicle available for the money in terms of fun, if you live in a suburban wasteland like I do in Chicagoland with zero fun roads. When I leased my 4xe, I was working from home full time, and my former commute was about 1 mile to a train station where I commuted to downtown. So almost all of my driving was around town, the school run, groceries, etc. Basically never venturing further than 10 miles from my house on a daily basis, never using gas, rarely going on the highway. As an around town vehicle, the Wrangler is fantastic. It has a short turning radius, it easily hops curbs, you basically can’t curb the Rubicon wheels, and in EV mode it’s silent and easy. Plus it hauls stuff, has moderate towing capacity (I used mine to tow a rented trailer to move about 5 blocks as well as launching jet skis and towing the occasional snowmobile), is great in bad weather. Also, it never looks out of place anywhere. I can drive it into a rough neighborhood, I can drive it to my country club, I can drive it to a nice restaurant, no one cares. I get more positive comments in my Jeeps than in anything else. And, I love taking the doors and top (I reused my soft top on this Jeep) off in good weather, from about April to about October. I also have access to a family cabin about 350 miles away, where we have 100 acres of undeveloped hunting property so the Jeep is more than capable enough for the offroading we do that for hunting and land maintenance. The Rubicon is wild overkill, but I chose that model because A) I hate the 20” wheels and low-profile tires on the other 4xe models, B) I hate leather in a Jeep or any vehicle I intend to use topless, and C) why the hell not? It is fun. Mine is basically all stock aside from some basic things like auxiliary lighting and a GMRS radio I added to it.
How has it been? Okay. On its best days, I love the thing. I love taking the doors off and cruising around on summer days, and I love the feeling when you drive it through a heavy snow storm, probably how it feels to have a 9” dong walking through the locker room, I’d imagine. However, I also changed jobs, and now I have a 35 mile one-way highway commute 2-3 days a week, and for that the Wrangler is terrible. It’s loud, it sucks on the highway, the hybrid system doesn’t work well at highway speeds, and it just isn’t fun. I’ve also had some problems, on Valentine’s Day the hybrid stuff crapped out and I needed a coolant heater (common issue) which took me until last Friday (2 months to the day) to get repaired due to the parts wait. It also has a FORM mode where the system doesn’t like to use full electric drive under about 30*F, which is about 4-5-6 months a year here in Chicagoland.
Would I buy it again? No. Prices have gone up significantly, and I believe to lease mine today would be closer to $650/$700. I don’t see the value there. I don’t really want to buy mine out either. I have my eye on another sedan, maybe a TLX-S, an Alfa Giulia, maybe an Integra-S if I could get one. However, if the world is in the same state next summer where these are all $750+ to lease, I might have “no choice” but to just buy out my lease and wait it out. I can get an extended warranty and my residual is around $38k, that’s still not a terrible deal for what I’d be buying (mine is currently way under miles by about 4k). I might sit on it for another year and give the world a chance to stabilize. It’s not my first choice though.
Anyways, there’s a little context for you. The price can be a lot cheaper than you think, and if you don’t do a lot of highway driving, they are great daily drivers, and offer a ton of fun if you take advantage of it (off roading, topless/doorless driving). Ours shares garage space with my S2000 and my wife’s MDX, so really, we have a very well rounded garage with a sports car, comfortable long distance cruiser, and the Jeep. Sorry for the long post.
I appreciate the long post and I had your previous comments in mind, both as I drove it and when I was writing the review.
Interesting that you dislike the highway performance. A friend of mine has one and loves the fact that she doesn't need to use any gas except on longer weekend trips. I also drove a tester on the freeway extensively and managed to use up the whole EV range without the engine coming on, and after that it was a fairly well-behaved hybrid. This was a 2022 model, so they may have fixed some of the bugs. That 2.0 is still an awful motor in a Jeep, though.
I have the 392 and was given a 4xe as a loner from the dealer. It wasn't bad but I much prefer the 392.
I can see why!
It's a completely bonkers vehicle. I ordered it as a bit of a lark, because the dealer did not require a deposit, and they also promised no markup. What did I have to loose?
To my surprise it was actually built, and they honored the price. My trade had ridiculous equity thanks to the crazy used car market, so how could I pass it up?
I drive it nearly every day. That's probably not so good for Barret-Jackson 2050.
That's why I drove the shit out of my 993 even as it quadrupled in value...
Much like the kids who keep their toys new in box, people who buy toys and dont play with them are dorks.
This. I continually see cars on Bring A Trailer like Miatas with 5000 miles on them. What on earth is the point? 30 years of opportunity for fun wasted, right down the gurgly tubes.
Then again, IIRC there was a fellow on BaT recently who sold his first-generation Viper. With 200K miles on it. Now there is a guy you could have coffee with.
I just passed up a 2009 HD XR1200 with less than 1100 miles on it. It looked like it had been left in a shed. You’d think you’d put 80 miles a year on a bike just pushing it around the garage.
I'll never get this ~ why buy a vehicle you don't like to drive the wheels off of ? .
I just spent three days running my battered old '59 VW flat out in back roads and everywhere I went folks told me how great it is ! .
It doesn't like to go over 60 ~ 65 MPH although on a downhill bit of Rt. 41 the Garmin says I reached 79MPH .
It's worthless junk no matter how well I make it run so might as well drive and enjoy it .
-Nate
I’ve probably put 200 miles on my bike since having children. Thousands before. Need to try and fix that.
I’m certainly not a “must preserve my car for the next guy” person, but to some extent I understand. I drive my hobby sports car maybe 1500-2k miles a year. There are just so many days where circumstances, weather, and vehicular needs allow for or justify a 2-seat convertible. I have zero desire to keep miles off the car, but I also have zero desire to drive it in the cold, extreme heat, rain, etc when I have a more comfortable vehicle for those conditions, and I’m often hauling both kids or cargo, both of which preclude the sports car. Mine would have minimal miles on it if I hadn’t daily driven it the first 3-4 years I owned it.
I have a 2021 Wrangler 392 and I love it. 13 mpg or so, and tons of power. My local dealer won’t stop calling me asking to trade it in on a new wrangler since they have a ton in stock, none of which are 392, and I laugh at them and say why would I want a v-6 or 4 cylinder wrangler. Compared to my 2017 Wrangler Sahara, the 2021 392 is a luxury beast. When I traded the 2017 Sahara I got $35,000, having paid $31,500 plus tax and driven it 50,000 miles.
I heard there was a parking garage someplace in Europe that collapsed because the EV's all weight a LOT MORE than their gas powered cousins. Usually a half ton to a ton more, because batteries are heavy.
So not surprised to find out this was heavier.
For me the limiting factor isn't space, got lots of that. The limiting factor is insurance which charges you the same if you're only driving one car at a time or if you're driving 10 cars at a time. Which of course is a huge fucking scam. I remember way back when I lived in Oregon that they could only charge you for driving one of your cars at a time, so you effectively paid a 'service fee' for each additional car. So of course I had 6 plus two motorcycles.
Now I have to insure each of them individually and you don't really get enough of a discount to run everything through the same insurance company (especially when a lot of companies won't touch bikes anymore).
I DO wonder if I could use an EV as a 'tesla power wall'? then it would pay to have one, and just let my solar system keep it charged and tap off of it when power goes out....
That's bidirectional charging. People have been using Teslas that way for years -- and it's a back-and-forth battle with Tesla, which keeps revising their software to lock them out! No surprise to hear that the company will be selling that feature soon.
F-150 Lightnings are "bi" from birth, as you'd suspect from looking at them.
Since I have a LOT of solar power I don't use, I'd be a great F-150 Lightning customer. I'd just rather suck off a horse than be seen in one.
Sir, there is some rousing discussion of this very topic on a recent episode of the inEVitable podcast!
If they had tomorrow's winning lottery tickets on the inevitable podcast I'd stay poor
A software update that takes away functionality should be grounds for an easy class action lawsuit. I hate this Saas economy.
I was kind of amazed when I transitioned to 100% work from home and Nationwide decided that zero commute and a total of less than 5k per year on all my cars combined didn't result in some sort of low millage discount.
Youre amazed that when something bad happens insurance companies rake you over the coals but when their costs decrease, you see none of the savings? I’m amazed at your optimism!
I didn't expect much, but the level of gall involved by the bagel company to give zero discount was a bit amazing to me.
I sold a bike because of insurance and currently selling two cars. Partially because of insurance and registration and partially cause im sick of dropping 2k every time the bmw hiccups. Something like $800 bucks a year just to have an extra car and $500 a year just to have a bike. It adds up.
My insurance provider attempted to DOUBLE the rate on cars last year. No incidents, no tickets, more catalytic converter thefts in the area but not on my block yet.
I changed providers and it was ~60% the price for equivalent coverage and even if they hike over time that's a long while before parity.
Fuckin' racket state mandated insurance grumble grumble
My homeowners went up 20% which means we raise prices at work as well and we get the grumbles as well. I like my agent so I didn’t whop around to save $100
I’ve griped enough about annual premium increases for my car stuff that my Nationwide agent dinked around and tried requoting a new policy! Voila! $125 savings per six-month renewal! 👍
The insurers really don't like a use case that doesn't fit neatly into their box. Geico recently dropped me, after 16 years with just one minor claim, when someone double-checked my existing policy information and realized that I was garaging one car in a different zip code (my mom's place across the lake from me). No attempt to accommodate, no consideration of my lengthy history, just "take that car off the policy or we drop you." Fortunately Progressive was happy to pick up the slack, for all four cars, not just one.
USAA dropped us a year ago out of the blue, so I took all of it (auto , renters, and homeowners) to Progressive. The car insurance was *1/3* the cost of USAA.
My renters' and homeowners' (why I have both is a complicated story) are both with Travelers. I've been very happy with them; premiums are low and the one claim I had, for the contents a piece of luggage stolen during an international trip, was handled quickly and without drama for what I thought an appropriate amount.
If you want a "practical" wrangler for daily duty it's called a Toyota 4Runner. Drives almost as shitty, gets bad mileage for no good reason, but it's much quieter over the road, secure, and you won't be on a first name basis with your service advisor.
In a world where even the most vanilla crossover will cruise at 100mph with 1 finger on the wheel for hours on end, there is something to be said for the experience a wrangler provides. They can never be called boring.
Hey Jack, whenever my S650 Mustang or Bronco come in (so somewhere between 3 and 144 months from now), wanna review them?
ABSOLUTELY. Let me know and I'll come out.
Hell yeah will do. Mustang will probably will be the one that lands.
Both of them are oddly specced in such a way you will absolutely never find in a press fleet.
I was shocked at how unreliable my jeep was. Went through 2 manual transmissions in the 9 months I owned it from new. Never again!
I remember some of the first JLUs had bad or missed welds.
They were robot welds which really makes you wonder what the workers were doing with calibration and alignment.
First signs of the robot uprising!
Honestly, I'd be more shocked if it was reliable. And I say that as somebody who wants one.
I spent a lot of time with these in my former job and even had one as a company car. These are the #1 selling PHEV now.
I concur that they're fine to drive, capable and reasonably comfortable. I did a landscaping project once where I needed approx 4 cubic yards of dirt. I was able to tow my utility trailer back and forth to the dirt place a few times all in EV mode which was kind of neat.
The worst part about them is the customers. In cold weather the engine runs often to assist with cabin heat when the electric heater can't do it. This pisses people off who think they bought a BEV Jeep, so they force the engine off with the little blue buttons to the left of the steering wheel. This doesn't allow the engine to reach operating temp thus fuel dilution in the oil builds up fast. Theres an algorithm that tracks it then forces the engine on into "fuel and oil refresh mode" until its satisfied dilution is under 20%...If one's drive cycle doesn't involve much highway, this mode can stay in practically indefinitely, further infuriating those customers who bring them to the dealer thinking they're broken. This was seriously the #1 quality issue at the time.. There was a task force, and you should have heard the clownshoe solutions. "Put a block heater in it"...uhh, the breaker will trip at most customers homes if they try and plug in to charge and use a block heater at the same time guys...
"Theres an algorithm that tracks it then forces the engine on into "fuel and oil refresh mode" until its satisfied dilution is under 20%."
Imagine telling a Big 3 engineer of 1970 about this. It would be completely sci-fi to him.
I occasionally think about this and then consider that they'd think that about 99% of the car. I also think about the parallels between engineers of the early 70s and now, where they were basically staring down a lost decade of doing nothing but compliance cars.
"A lost decade".
My God, I hope that's all it is. But I feel for the men who are stuck doing it.
My neighbor across the street got one of these and being a good suburbanite, ran over his charger in the garage. So he doesn't really use the EV part of it. He told me his cost about $65K, but it has the nice ruby red paint.
I haven't told him my new Audi S4 loaded was just a little more than his Jeep. I get 30MPG on the highway with my 350HP. Just sayin.
Yeah, you really gotta want the Wrangler part, because the Wrangler part is expensive.
To put in perspective, I'm scheduled to pay $56k for a 392-powered 300C that will look more expensive, inside and out, than a $95k Wrangler 392.
I should have tried to get in on one of those. 56k seems downright cheap in todays car market. Todays car market is stupid.
Man give me that HiAce....
As to the inherent/historic "repairability" of Wranglers, I'd say the hybrid stuff throws repairability/rebuildability right out the window, to say nothing of the current state of 50-60 black box modules communicating across 3-4 high speed networks, with (in the case of FCA/Stellantis) Secure Vehicle Gateway paywalling even fairly committed tinkerers from having bidirectional control using their chinese scanners. Now, I could see a Cuba-like future where there's a cottage industry of tearing out all of the aforementioned with a more basic harness, and installing a Mahindra style basic diesel engine under the hood (or maybe a rebuilt old 4.0L).
That HiAce is wicked, right? Japanese Classics just sold one that was substantially similar for thirteen grand.
Those RHD 4WD jap vans were/are all over Siberia, have always lusted after them.
about 12 years ago i drove a hiace diesel manual on vacation in the norwegian fjord region. huge inside and a lot of fun including the handrake hill starts. not a lot of wranglers in norway.
Thanks for the review, as I was one of the folks asking about it. I'm actually rather surprised by your mostly positive impressions.
I'm toying with getting a Wrangler because I want a garageable utility vehicle that isn't a crossover. I don't want a 4Runner because it's old as crap and I already had one. And if one could actually get a hold of a new Bronco, I still don't want one because Ford has already failed me twice. So that pretty much leaves the Wrangler.
I test drove a low-option, two door Willys V6 a couple of years ago. I wanted to like it but it was just too crude. I suspect part of the problem the lousy Firestone mud tires they put on that model. A higher-trim 4 door seems like a more livable option - Sahara would be the smart buy, but I'm the sort of asshole who'd buy the Rubicon just for the looks.
I'd just assume skip the 4xe, as it's needless extra cost and complexity. But trying to find a Jeep spec'ed to your desires on a dealer lot is a maddening experience. The 4xe has the Selec-Trac full-time transfer case standard - which is a no-brainer option in foul-weather country, but no dealer has one with it in inventory, and if they do, it's missing heated seats and remote start. At some point, I just say fuck it and don't care how much it costs to get everything I want.
If all goes according to plan, my work commute will be all surface streets and within the 20 mile electric range. The road noise and shitty dynamics will be secondary, as I have another car better suited for distance travel. I'll also have a garage setup for an easy charge install. So I wouldn't at all hate the plug-in capability.
It's still a rather stupid vehicle, whose off road attributes I'll never take full advantage of, and who's top-down attributes I'll undoubtedly take far less advantage of than I think I will. But it's got character, which is more than I can say for 98% of the other choices out there.
The 4Runner is a superannuated piece of garbage... that will be worth about 70% of what you paid at 200k miles.
Having owned a TRD Pro for the past 7 years, I'm pretty sure the "superannuated piece of garbage" bit is the truck's most endearing quality. I can drive the thing on any terrain I find out here in the desert, fill it with an amount of guns that would give the Taliban pause (or photo gear, depending on what I want to shoot), drive back through the shittiest neighborhoods and park it at Mastro's. No one bats an eye. There are hundreds of them in this town. At this point, I keep thinking about replacing it, but all of its shortcomings are mitigated by other vehicles we own. It is worth about 85% what I paid for it, so maybe it is time to cash out.
The only question is: will you get what you paid for it, or will you get MORE?
But then you have to drive it for 200k miles
True!
But driving a 4Runner or even an LX460 has always been a penalty box situation.
My buddy has a lx460. I actually really liked it. I did not like it 70k more than a telluride. I think that’s what he told me he paid.
I’m looking at a 4Runner for my wife, coming out of an Escape. Is that a bad idea?
I wouldn't want to see an untrained driver encounter a highway situation that required decisive action in one anyway.
Do you live someplace where it snows? Does your wife want to deal with a part-time 4wd transfer case, or are you willing to shell out 50k for a Limited with AWD?
As a family vehicle, compared to a generic crossover, it's worse in every way. Plus the interior sucks and it's slow.
SE PA. Very little snow. She’s been looking at a SR5. I think. 46k sticker, I believe. Her friend has one and she seems to like it. I like the idea of body on frame. And I’d like to keep it forever, basically.
I rented a Taco for a couple of days and it was like a time machine. If I was the Taliban or needed to fight the Taliban it would be great but other than that what a hunk of junk. I can't believe people commute in that brick.
BUT OMG TOYOTA RELIABILITY! I CAN HAND IT DOWN TO MY GREAT-GRANDKIDS!!!
Nevermind that you won't keep it any longer than you would have a competing product.
Almost everything Toyota makes is a chintzy, class-trailing piece of shit. Not to mention ugly as fuck. But people have bought into the hype, so there's no incentive for the company to stop sucking so hard.
Drum brakes are better, somehow...
The fanbois say it's because they're more durable and rear discs are overkill for stopping power.
Oddly enough, the only issue I've ever had with rear discs was on...a Toyota 4Runner. Caliper froze up and I caught it just before it trashed the rotor. Probably caused by the other Achilles heel of that platform: corrosion.
I took the switch back to drums to be a tacit admission of serial incompetence.
They don’t want to infringe on Lexus brand
Jeeps are weird in that you will generally get a discount on an order. I ordered both of mine exactly how I wanted them, they took about 4-6 weeks to come in (August ‘18 and June/July ‘21) and I got a substantial discount versus what I would have had to pay for something that wasn’t exactly what I wanted off the lot.
The 4Runner not being updated made me look past it as well.
Toyota printing cash with that as the tooling must have been paid off a long time ago
Bronco is the answer, Ford’s incessant issues aside. It is *so* much nicer to drive than a Wrangler. You can find one for MSRP if you’re patient, and they are worth it.
I have more than one customer who bought their daughter a Jeep. Said daughters gave them back to Mom when they were no longer just driving to be seen. All it took was an out of town matriculation.
LOL $58k for a tractor that wasn't born in Morris Garage. I was expecting Jack to really trash this thing but he's probably correct about it being well adjusted to our modern society, more's the pity.
My first thought, last thought, and constant thought while operating it was
FUCK THIS PIECE OF SHIT
which is why I wanted to be careful what I thought and wrote afterwards. Any time you have a reaction that one-sided, it usually means you're missing something, or the product simply isn't for you, which is the case here. I have a Roxor and an F-250, so I don't need a Wrangler of any kind.
You drove the worst example of the current generation. Even in that form it's still better than the best of the previous generations. The ergonomics and driving position are nice (for a Wrangler). The modern infotainment is well done, particularly in comparison to whatever Ford is doing.
That being said, they sell tons of these things for a reason. Take the top and doors off it's a different vehicle. Particularly in 392 form.
The solid axle remains at the request of the enthusiasts. Unlike other brands, Jeep, at least while they still can, is catering to the customer base that put them where they are. There is something to be said for that.
I purchased the 392 not only for what I thought was a good deal, but also because Stellantis had the audacity to build it.
It also helps to know the powers that be really don't want me to have one. After all, don't we all only want what we can't have?
My buddy has a four door Willys that he loves. I’ve ridden around with him a few times. With the top and doors on, it’s ok but nothing that I would be interested in. It’s cramped, rough, and loud. With the top and doors off, below 50MPH, I see the appeal. Then I went on the highway with him in the same configuration and felt like I had done a few rounds with Mike Tyson. My ears were ringing for hours after.
I guess it is a Jeep thing and they’re right. I don’t understand.
"Any time you have a reaction that one-sided, it usually means you're missing something, or the product simply isn't for you, which is the case here."
That's extremely fair-minded and probably correct. And yet sometimes "FUCK THIS PIECE OF SHIT" is a useful thing to hear, especially when applied to something everyone loves. Be specific, but don't hesitate to tell us what you think.
I had the same reaction to a Charger GT (the one with the V6 but the fancy bodywork from the Scat Pack) when I rented it in 2018. The strength of the reaction surprised me and the reasons for it still inform my car choices today.
I rented a brand new (8 miles on the odometer and plastic on the controls) 4XE Rubicon last month from Fox rental car at LAX for 25 bucks a day. The best western on sunset plaza had chargers so I was able to charge it with no issues. In 6 days I drove all over Los Angeles; from WeHo to Malibu to Little Tokyo resulting in 350 miles of travel. The day before I departed I topped the Jeep off for 25 bucks at 5 bucks a gallon. I thought it was a really nice ride. Way nicer than the two JKs I owned a decade ago. My only complaint was it felt slightly under braked. Credit this to the weight I guess. The sole reason I wouldn’t own one is the prospect of paying 65k for a wrangler is one rubicon I just can’t cross.
"The sole reason I wouldn’t own one is the prospect of paying 65k for a wrangler is one rubicon I just can’t cross."
*head in hands, ruefully*
And to think I pay YOU to comment on here.
Just goes to show which one of us is smarter! Makes up for you being better looking.
Unlike most people who own Rubicons, I've actually been on the Rubicon... well, only as far as Cadillac Hill. Dirt Bikes don't do well on portions of that trail.
Which of course begs the question: How did someone get a 60's model Cadillac that far up a trail that you need a rock crawler for?
Answer: because the government put those rocks there! The original trail built by a very famous naturalist was made for cars! But the greenies couldn't stand the idea of people being able to view nature.
Don't be rueful, Jack. It's a Journey reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXWLtzmUpDE
You're kidding, right?
You think there's something in a Journey song that is not TOP OF MIND for me?
This was the band's one deviation into what I think of "Iron Maiden territory".
Fair point. But it is a somewhat arcane reference…
You're on the edge of the blade with this, Chuck. No matter how majestic you think your references might be, you still come off as a troubled child!
I was a troubled child…
60K, for a vehicle with so many compromises in every day use? I'm flummoxed. At least the mainstream combover suppositories have reasonably decent NVH and mpg by comparison.
I wonder if the 'hybrid' sticker will get this 5000#, 20mpg pig in the HOV lane.
Nearly all Jeeps I see sport some sort of 'jeep girl' regalia.
"Silly boys...Jeeps are for girls."
Yeah, we've known that for the past 15 years.