Great article but one correction. The Dark Horse does not use an unburstable version of the Tremec. It uses the TR-3160, not the TR-6060.
The Tremec in the Dark Horse is a version of what GM uses in the V6 Camaro. It is a HUGE flaw and the main reason I did not purchase one. I ended up with a used SS 1LE instead.
RPM Transmissions, who built the TR-6060 in my Corvette, won't even touch the TR-3160.
I’m going to pile on just slightly to add that the IDEA of an MT-82 was brilliant because it provides an incredible amount gearing with a 1:1 5th gear. This is basically like running around with a 4.80 gearset when the car is equipped with a 3.31 (and why for the first time in history the numerically lower factory gears were coveted).
IF one is to choose that route, Calimer transmissions is THE go-to source to keep your car alive, especially with power.
Aside from the latest Tremec TKX offerings, the big daddy will always be the T-56 Magnum swaps as they can be built out the furthest. Unfortunately they are heavy and you don’t get the wild gear reduction of the lighter MT-82. You see this struggle often if you ever followed a Coyote Stock class (R.I.P.). The G101A and the TKX are the new Gods There.
Side note: talking with Ford Engineers - they made certain that a Magnum could be directly swapped into the latest GT500s if desired. There was actually a company doing $6500 conversions with a GT pedal assy and a correct center console. The DTC seems to be doing well in those cars but it’s very cool that they considered the end user.
Lucky for me I’m too poor to hack up 100k mustangs.
Kinda sorta. For anything serious you need a blowbroof bell housing which the 56 is designed for vs the 6060, that and the multiple shifter positions make the Magnum more race friendly.
Sure, but I thought we were not talking purpose built race cars here. The point is what should a high performance car come with from the factory. The dark horse falls short. All V8 Camaros get what is essentially a factory T56 magnum that can be built to handle over 1000 HP if you want to go crazy.
I don’t need a blowproof bell housing and multiple shifter locations on my street and occasional HPDE car, but I really like knowing the guts are the same.
Well, yes for a factory standpoint you’re near guaranteed an aluminum bell housing but it’s still nice to have the option to switch. Especially as an enthusiast. Likewise if you’re trying to put one in a different platform than stock - like an MT82 car, it’s extremely advantageous to have different shifter positions, moreso on a car traditionally setup for a remote mounted shifter.
A 6060 can be UPGRADED to a magnum but I wouldn’t go say they all get them factory. The input shaft and bearing assemblies are very different along with other notables. In all, yes it very much depends on application but I guess in my own garage it matters. *shrugs*
Most anything I deal with goes to Liberty Gear. But yes, the TR6060 is no slouch. I believe the tq rating overall is higher when built but again it goes back to application. Idk, I’ve 3 56 based cars at current being a Viper, C5, and an 03 Cobra and they all have different highlights and shortcomings.
Cars that get the good stuff ARE for race style purposes and are leaving at high rpm on slicks so that flexibility is important along with what they go into.
I’ve personally pushed broken input shaft 6060 cars back into trailers multiple times in the same summer. Perhaps it’s luck but the Magnum cars have stayed alive.
Now, about that Bronco Sport, if you buy the one with the locker and the other good off-road gear, you would be shocked at how capable it truly is out in the wilderness.
I drove one at the Bronco “Off Rodeo” in the Texas Hill Country through mud and deep water and over terrain you wouldn’t believe it would handle.
The OG Escape, with the locking center PTO was the same way. I still plan on getting a cheap one, putting the most aggressive tires on there, and doing a little bumper trimming to improve the approach and departure angles, then using its small size to take lines on trails that usually have most of the vehicles trailered there.
I think this would work. However, I don’t think Ford cares about selling affordable vehicles right now, and I especially don’t think the folks in charge are concerned with costly decisions today that help the company tomorrow.
After all, if you’re an executive and you green-light a loss-leader or not-super-profitable product, that looks bad on you. Whatever benefits come from that in the future, you won’t get to enjoy, because you’ll have been ousted or will have moved on to greener pastures.
I think Ford is perfectly fine to let the Mustang ascend into a premium, relatively-unaffordable product. And I—who can certainly afford one—even considered one. But I didn’t appreciate the prospect of paying $55K for a GT Premium. The Mustang is just not a car that should cost more than about $42K, in my opinion, Coyote or not. It doesn’t make a compelling case for itself, in terms of build quality or brand experience, to cost that much in ways that matter to me.
Now, if they made a Lincoln version of the Mustang—preferably with a livable backseat and a softer suspension—I would be the first in line to buy it.
I was getting my Expedition serviced a few weeks back, and took a stroll around the lot here in Vero Beach. I would say the average sticker was much closer to that $55k than even the 42k. Everyone is definitely chasing the upmarket folks and longer financing terms for people who want to look like them.
The maverick in me says that it’s the perfect spot for a $25k fun appealing car like Jack suggests, but Ford may have blown the marketing punch by calling the EV a Mustang ranger than the entry sporty model he suggests.
I totally agree with you and hate it too. It’s why I try to stay in B2B businesses. Really interesting report in the WSJ last week that the top 10% now makes up 50% of consumer spending so it makes total sense to market to that top two deciles. Although I’d be very interested to compare this groups saving/investing rate to years past…
Absolutely agree with you there, lots of subprime dollars and folks fronting has to come home to roost at some point. Not to mention all of the negative equity most folks who have bought cars recently are carrying around
I'm not sure Ford knows how to build affordable cars at a profit. iirc, the Focus and Fusion were both selling well enough to easily justify a spot in the market when they were cancelled. I can only assume margins were too low
If Big Government can mandate EVs, how about the geniuses in DC mandate affordable cars? At least the automakers would lose less than they have on EVs.
(in reality I want the government out of the auto business)
Which is a stupid fucking name. A Mustang-based sedan is something I’d actually love to own. I don’t want a car that shares a name with a slew of tape job specials marketed towards baby boomers.
Why not call it a Falcon? Or finally put some respect back in the Taurus name?
Yup, dumb name. While they probably could design a good looking four door Mustang, I really can’t see a business case for one, unless it’s a better and cheaper Audi A5.
As much as I want to hate this I think the Bronco/Bronco II analogy is apt, and nothing can besmirch the "Mustang" name more than the Mach-E already has. As it stands the RWD platform is heavy and lacks interior room. The primary customer for new Ecoboosts with or without tops seems to be rental fleets, so in addition to taking a hit vs. retail sales that is probably hurting the prestige on the V-8s more than a FWD Mustang II with a distinct body style would.
Given the price of the latest 911, the (apparent) death of the Boxster and Cayman as ICE propositions, the success of the C8 Corvette, etc. With the death of the Camaro, what else is available under $100K with a stick? M2 and M4, Nissan Z (a super exotic car, since I have only seen ONE on the road), maybe a few others?
Ford is racing the Mustang in IMSA and WEC, Ford is launching an LMDh for IMSA and WEC, and they are badging a Red Bull Powertrains F1 Power Unit. Those all align with upmarket brand positioning for “Nigels,” not “Bubbas.”
now does that mean this current mustang moves upmarket with the mustang 2 being the entry level model or should they drop the idea of a mustang 2 entirely
I certainly believe that the Mustang should move upmarket, at least a little bit -revamped marketing, nicer interior materials, etc. Particularly to justify the expense of a vehicle that is the only car Ford currently sells.
The creation of an affordable “enthusiast” car strikes me as fairly inconsequential. There are plenty of “enthusiast” cars out there - they are used cars. Slapping a Mustang badge on one wouldn’t make it sell any better - since enthusiasts are knowledgeable - and it would devalue the higher end Mustang.
An S550 with better interior trim, more premium color options, and less stick-on shit would have been a great car. Think Bullitt but with something closer to Lincoln Black Label or F-Series Platinum interior at a minimum.
The current generation (whatever it’s called) has too many scoops and weird edges.
I think there's a credible argument for either trading trading cylinders for refinement and straight line speed with the M2, or trading a few mph of trap speed for refinement with the RC F, all for similar price.
That said, I can see where not everyone would agree.
The point is NOT an "enthusiast" car. It is a cheap, basic, good enough, sell a lot of them car. Move the current Mustang upmarket without putting something underneath it is just stupid.
Current Mustang compares quite favorably to the BMW 4 series, just needs the nicer interior which costs a good bit more. So maybe you’re onto something with going upmarket as a coupe.
I still like Jacks idea though, you need something “entry level” to get people in. Like an American GTI to the coupes 3 series.
Why? I know folks who have, they’re the last two decently sized relatively affordable coupes around. Similarly equipped the prices aren’t THAT far apart
I think you can only take it upmarket if you combine it with Jack's idea. After it is taken up market, you can build souped up versions of Jack's idea, and have enough of a performance gap to justify it.
The market was much more crowded then, and nobody wants to buy anything with a Jaguar badge, which is why they rolled the dice on the “Faguar,” as some are calling the EV.
Also, Mustang GTD sold with ease and could be a halo for the upmarket Mustang.
Swear to god I thought the first time I saw his name attached to one of the press releases about that monstrosity that it was some sub-babylon bee knockoff. "There's no way this dude's name is "Raw Dong Lover", none.". But it is.
I first heard my octogenarian father use the term during the eighties, and he claimed it was a common appellation among the patrol officers of our local police department. It's not only the EV.
The jaguar XK is an absolutely beautiful car, but it's hamstrung by not being much lighter or faster than an XJR, and when it was new you could have a 997 for less
" With the death of the Camaro, what else is available under $100K with a stick? M2 and M4, Nissan Z (a super exotic car, since I have only seen ONE on the road), maybe a few others?"
I bought an ES 350 Ultra Luxury in February. That cost comfortably over $55K. I thought it was good value, compared to the other stuff at that price (which was either loaded-up non-lux cars or very sparsely equipped lux ones).
The Camaro will inevitably be back. Hopefully it won't be solely electric. If history repeats, it will leapfrog the Mustang in performance on return.
Ford has essentially made the current Mustang chassis a copy of the Camaro. The suspension designs are nearly identical.
Of course all of this engineering skullduggery goes back to the good old Aussies with the Zeta chassis. Which, in the Alpha iteration, is eerily similar to an E90 BMW.
This is the business equivalent of bending over and shouting "disrupt me harder Daddy" to whoever comes along and offers a compelling enthusiast car at a reasonable price.
You're also forgetting there a plethora of used cars available for anyone who isn't enamored of the utterly cynical shite being pushed by most major OEMs.
“The creation of an affordable “enthusiast” car strikes me as fairly inconsequential. There are plenty of “enthusiast” cars out there - they are used cars.”
The affordable “enthusiast” market is a bad market to be in. How many new Nissan 400Zs have you seen? Over the past year I have seen as many McLaren Elvas (149 units worldwide) in the wild as I have Nissan 400Z examples (one apiece).
I see mavericks everywhere, including several amongst the non auto-affiliated contingent at my daycare.
You don't see any 400Zs because they're awful and don't sell.
As far as moving the mustang upmarket, they've done that. You can go pay $300k mustang GTD, which is saved from being the worst value at that price point only by the Cadillac celestiq.
I'm also personally fine with used cars as an enthusiast option, especially as I can deal with the requisite maintenance myself. Not everyone has the inclination or a used Mulsanne's worth of workspace for that.
It's a barrier to entry for the enthusiast market. Whoever figures out how to tear down that barrier is going to disrupt the car market, having walked into a large addressable market with little competition. It likely won't be Ford
Surprised Jack didn't jump in to say this but, the mustang works as a family car with some compromises. The Miata simply is amazing, the GR86 does the same thing but worse, but none of them work well as an only car.
Motor that’s a no brainer and Miata needs the Mazda tt inline 6. Stock ther cars as they exist now are slower than a. Minivan and while momentum is The art of driving in the USA hp and acceleration counts too
I do t think you ca doa. Compelling ethicist cost at a reasonable price. Too many compromises
I guess the toyobaru and Miata comes closest. Both those cars would be better off with 50% more power even if they cost a bit more, today even a minivan can acellerate. Ironically Subaru makes a good turbo
Motor that would fix that car and Mazda has a nice twin turbo inline 6. For 5k? More per car they might have something g compelling.
If ford wnats the mustang to go a bit more upscale it would need a quality interior and build. I’ve seen new mustangs on the showroom floor that looked like they were assembled in Detroit in the early 70s. Is it. It a boomer Walter Mitty car ride days, a 4 wheeld harley softail?
Imo for the $ so many between choices other than the pseudo nostalgia schtick. I’ve also heard the suspension has minted adjustability for track.
The Camaro was a way better car but gm made it too small too limited in greenhouse and too crappy inside
I'm honestly surprised that we never got a Lincoln badged "XR7" on the current Mustang platform. Refine the suspension a little bit, keep the Ecoboost 4, toss on an actual interior and a different "retro" front fascia and you've got a decent 2 series/CLA/ G70 competitor for not much work.
I would add that they need a non-turbo 6 or 4 cylinder. Something that runs on regular and has an engine that will last a couple hundred thousand miles. Make the car light enough, and suddenly you're getting great highway mileage. And yeah, no 'sits 4 adults'. Make that back seat an insurance dodge, like it was meant to be!
i dont hate the mustang 2 in large part due to my father purchasing a mustang 2 cobra 2 (white with green stripes) which was immediately and heavily modified
also your idea of a focustang isnt bad of an idea given that the mach ev thing exists and that might not have killed the mustang so surely a fun engine powered fwd mustang could survive in that market as well, no? bit odd having three different mustangs on the showroom floor though
Right on. What some commentators are forgetting is that Ford could/would offer the high-end models as well. In fact, those would help the Mustang II (or is it III?) with the halo affect.
Great article but one correction. The Dark Horse does not use an unburstable version of the Tremec. It uses the TR-3160, not the TR-6060.
The Tremec in the Dark Horse is a version of what GM uses in the V6 Camaro. It is a HUGE flaw and the main reason I did not purchase one. I ended up with a used SS 1LE instead.
RPM Transmissions, who built the TR-6060 in my Corvette, won't even touch the TR-3160.
Pinned, thank you!
I’m going to pile on just slightly to add that the IDEA of an MT-82 was brilliant because it provides an incredible amount gearing with a 1:1 5th gear. This is basically like running around with a 4.80 gearset when the car is equipped with a 3.31 (and why for the first time in history the numerically lower factory gears were coveted).
IF one is to choose that route, Calimer transmissions is THE go-to source to keep your car alive, especially with power.
Aside from the latest Tremec TKX offerings, the big daddy will always be the T-56 Magnum swaps as they can be built out the furthest. Unfortunately they are heavy and you don’t get the wild gear reduction of the lighter MT-82. You see this struggle often if you ever followed a Coyote Stock class (R.I.P.). The G101A and the TKX are the new Gods There.
Side note: talking with Ford Engineers - they made certain that a Magnum could be directly swapped into the latest GT500s if desired. There was actually a company doing $6500 conversions with a GT pedal assy and a correct center console. The DTC seems to be doing well in those cars but it’s very cool that they considered the end user.
Lucky for me I’m too poor to hack up 100k mustangs.
The 6060 and Magnum are essentially the same transmission.
Kinda sorta. For anything serious you need a blowbroof bell housing which the 56 is designed for vs the 6060, that and the multiple shifter positions make the Magnum more race friendly.
Blow proof *junk iPhone*
Sure, but I thought we were not talking purpose built race cars here. The point is what should a high performance car come with from the factory. The dark horse falls short. All V8 Camaros get what is essentially a factory T56 magnum that can be built to handle over 1000 HP if you want to go crazy.
I don’t need a blowproof bell housing and multiple shifter locations on my street and occasional HPDE car, but I really like knowing the guts are the same.
Well, yes for a factory standpoint you’re near guaranteed an aluminum bell housing but it’s still nice to have the option to switch. Especially as an enthusiast. Likewise if you’re trying to put one in a different platform than stock - like an MT82 car, it’s extremely advantageous to have different shifter positions, moreso on a car traditionally setup for a remote mounted shifter.
A 6060 can be UPGRADED to a magnum but I wouldn’t go say they all get them factory. The input shaft and bearing assemblies are very different along with other notables. In all, yes it very much depends on application but I guess in my own garage it matters. *shrugs*
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1505-tremecs-t-56-magnum-uses-tr-6060-guts-to-nearly-double-torque-capacity/
For what Ford charges for the Mustang, ALL V8 cars should get the 6060.
https://www.hotrod.com/how-to/build-t56-magnum-handle-1200-hp/
Most anything I deal with goes to Liberty Gear. But yes, the TR6060 is no slouch. I believe the tq rating overall is higher when built but again it goes back to application. Idk, I’ve 3 56 based cars at current being a Viper, C5, and an 03 Cobra and they all have different highlights and shortcomings.
Cars that get the good stuff ARE for race style purposes and are leaving at high rpm on slicks so that flexibility is important along with what they go into.
I’ve personally pushed broken input shaft 6060 cars back into trailers multiple times in the same summer. Perhaps it’s luck but the Magnum cars have stayed alive.
We didn't get the Puma, obvi, but i did see it in the British rags. Is that the one they did the Steve McQueen ad for?
Got it! That looks dangerously close to a Toyota/Honda C-HR-V.
Therein lies the problem. If they can take 10-15k out of current MSRPs things may be different for sales.
I agree, but only way that’s happening is if auto regulations are rolled back to 1995.
Time for an automakers revolt!
We might get it through the DOT and EPA, they recognize that all these regulations strangle the economy.
I had no idea how expensive the mustang has become. My brain never moved on from $35k for a GT premium.
I hate this so much. I don’t doubt that you are right. But god I hate it.
Oh, he’s right, alright, alright, alright.
Seriously, though, he IS right.
Now, about that Bronco Sport, if you buy the one with the locker and the other good off-road gear, you would be shocked at how capable it truly is out in the wilderness.
I drove one at the Bronco “Off Rodeo” in the Texas Hill Country through mud and deep water and over terrain you wouldn’t believe it would handle.
Don’t sleep on a properly equipped Bronco Sport.
Cheers!
You mean capable like a Subaru?
I’m not familiar with how capable the most off-roady Subaru is.
I’m just saying, a properly optioned Bronco Sport will go places that most people would not believe.
Now, it’s not a full front & rear locker with 35’s type of capable, but it will go places the 95th percentile citizen has never gone before.
The OG Escape, with the locking center PTO was the same way. I still plan on getting a cheap one, putting the most aggressive tires on there, and doing a little bumper trimming to improve the approach and departure angles, then using its small size to take lines on trails that usually have most of the vehicles trailered there.
If Ford were to resurrect the ‘Stang II in this way, I would hope that said vehicle would have four cylinders, minimum, in all configurations!
I think this would work. However, I don’t think Ford cares about selling affordable vehicles right now, and I especially don’t think the folks in charge are concerned with costly decisions today that help the company tomorrow.
After all, if you’re an executive and you green-light a loss-leader or not-super-profitable product, that looks bad on you. Whatever benefits come from that in the future, you won’t get to enjoy, because you’ll have been ousted or will have moved on to greener pastures.
I think Ford is perfectly fine to let the Mustang ascend into a premium, relatively-unaffordable product. And I—who can certainly afford one—even considered one. But I didn’t appreciate the prospect of paying $55K for a GT Premium. The Mustang is just not a car that should cost more than about $42K, in my opinion, Coyote or not. It doesn’t make a compelling case for itself, in terms of build quality or brand experience, to cost that much in ways that matter to me.
Now, if they made a Lincoln version of the Mustang—preferably with a livable backseat and a softer suspension—I would be the first in line to buy it.
I was getting my Expedition serviced a few weeks back, and took a stroll around the lot here in Vero Beach. I would say the average sticker was much closer to that $55k than even the 42k. Everyone is definitely chasing the upmarket folks and longer financing terms for people who want to look like them.
The maverick in me says that it’s the perfect spot for a $25k fun appealing car like Jack suggests, but Ford may have blown the marketing punch by calling the EV a Mustang ranger than the entry sporty model he suggests.
I totally agree with you and hate it too. It’s why I try to stay in B2B businesses. Really interesting report in the WSJ last week that the top 10% now makes up 50% of consumer spending so it makes total sense to market to that top two deciles. Although I’d be very interested to compare this groups saving/investing rate to years past…
https://www.wsj.com/economy/consumers/us-economy-strength-rich-spending-2c34a571
Depressing article. Thanks for posting it (I think).
A friend of my parents, with a solid 9-figure net worth, is known to say “You’ll never go broke gouging the rich!”.
(He drives a Caravan; his kids Do Not).
No banks in heaven.
and at some point the upmarket is going to crater. % of bad auto loans is already trending up.
Absolutely agree with you there, lots of subprime dollars and folks fronting has to come home to roost at some point. Not to mention all of the negative equity most folks who have bought cars recently are carrying around
“Maverick”—nice turn of phrase!
I'm not sure Ford knows how to build affordable cars at a profit. iirc, the Focus and Fusion were both selling well enough to easily justify a spot in the market when they were cancelled. I can only assume margins were too low
Or they’re just burning all that cash on the EV side, so they need the fat margins the trucks provide
If Big Government can mandate EVs, how about the geniuses in DC mandate affordable cars? At least the automakers would lose less than they have on EVs.
(in reality I want the government out of the auto business)
Then you’d have different opinions of what “affordable” would be!
Well they *did* patent the name "Mach-4"...
That name is rumored to be for a four door Mustang.
Which is a stupid fucking name. A Mustang-based sedan is something I’d actually love to own. I don’t want a car that shares a name with a slew of tape job specials marketed towards baby boomers.
Why not call it a Falcon? Or finally put some respect back in the Taurus name?
Yup, dumb name. While they probably could design a good looking four door Mustang, I really can’t see a business case for one, unless it’s a better and cheaper Audi A5.
Agree! and also change the stupid Mustang Mach-e name to something else.
I would be in on a four door.
The first truck company that does this wins (and by truck company I mean Chevy/Ford/Dodge Or Stallantis or whateverthefitis)
https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/ford-mustang-sedan-trademark/?utm_source=SFMC&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MED_UN_NA_EML_UN_UN_DailyDriver_Monday&hashed_email=c93f4cb2181ed250a86bed10dcc164727f997b8414df20a7ec7b23bdcc274324&dtm_em=c93f4cb2181ed250a86bed10dcc164727f997b8414df20a7ec7b23bdcc274324
So from Hagerty so make of it what you will…..
Four door we may get!
Hang on a sec, the name Mach 4 has far too few blades to be appealing.
They aren’t doing anything based upon Occam’s Razor, eh?! 😂😂
Huh. I guess “Cutlass” was taken?
Hate the idea quite a bit.
This needs to come with some Cobra Jet badged $70K 6.8L "real Mustang" as a salve.
Full 7.3 might as well go all the way.
As much as I want to hate this I think the Bronco/Bronco II analogy is apt, and nothing can besmirch the "Mustang" name more than the Mach-E already has. As it stands the RWD platform is heavy and lacks interior room. The primary customer for new Ecoboosts with or without tops seems to be rental fleets, so in addition to taking a hit vs. retail sales that is probably hurting the prestige on the V-8s more than a FWD Mustang II with a distinct body style would.
I don't blame the Russian for doing that for maybe a chance to stay behind the front lines...
There needs to be a dislike button like there is the like button on substack
I would move the Mustang UPmarket.
Given the price of the latest 911, the (apparent) death of the Boxster and Cayman as ICE propositions, the success of the C8 Corvette, etc. With the death of the Camaro, what else is available under $100K with a stick? M2 and M4, Nissan Z (a super exotic car, since I have only seen ONE on the road), maybe a few others?
Ford is racing the Mustang in IMSA and WEC, Ford is launching an LMDh for IMSA and WEC, and they are badging a Red Bull Powertrains F1 Power Unit. Those all align with upmarket brand positioning for “Nigels,” not “Bubbas.”
now does that mean this current mustang moves upmarket with the mustang 2 being the entry level model or should they drop the idea of a mustang 2 entirely
I certainly believe that the Mustang should move upmarket, at least a little bit -revamped marketing, nicer interior materials, etc. Particularly to justify the expense of a vehicle that is the only car Ford currently sells.
The creation of an affordable “enthusiast” car strikes me as fairly inconsequential. There are plenty of “enthusiast” cars out there - they are used cars. Slapping a Mustang badge on one wouldn’t make it sell any better - since enthusiasts are knowledgeable - and it would devalue the higher end Mustang.
An S550 with better interior trim, more premium color options, and less stick-on shit would have been a great car. Think Bullitt but with something closer to Lincoln Black Label or F-Series Platinum interior at a minimum.
The current generation (whatever it’s called) has too many scoops and weird edges.
"Bullitt but with something closer to Lincoln Black Label or F-Series Platinum interior at a minimum"
that sound you hear is my heart singing.
So something worse than the M2 for more money?
Well, it would have a V8.
I think there's a credible argument for either trading trading cylinders for refinement and straight line speed with the M2, or trading a few mph of trap speed for refinement with the RC F, all for similar price.
That said, I can see where not everyone would agree.
The point is NOT an "enthusiast" car. It is a cheap, basic, good enough, sell a lot of them car. Move the current Mustang upmarket without putting something underneath it is just stupid.
I believe it was Jack who as advocating for an affordable, enthusiast-oriented “Mustang.” Who would buy such a car?
Guess how many Mavericks I have seen, ever? ONE. And that was at a hotel in Braselton over Petit Le Mans weekend.
Come down to Florida. I see a bunch around Vero and Miami, and it’s a healthy mix of fleet/work Mavericks and private vehicles.
Bronco sports seem to be everywhere though, even with the exploding 3 cyl
I see Mavericks about as often than new Mustangs here in the Bay Area.
I have literally seen ONE.
I have a friend who foolishly bought a Lightning, and I text him every time I see one 😂. I have seen 3 Lightnings this year.
Mavericks are all over the place here in SoCal. As are Bronco Sports.
I see Mavericks all over in the Chicagoland area. They are also quickly becoming a popular fleet vehicle for local companies.
Current Mustang compares quite favorably to the BMW 4 series, just needs the nicer interior which costs a good bit more. So maybe you’re onto something with going upmarket as a coupe.
I still like Jacks idea though, you need something “entry level” to get people in. Like an American GTI to the coupes 3 series.
the thought of people cross shopping a Mustang and a 4 series is laughable.
Why? I know folks who have, they’re the last two decently sized relatively affordable coupes around. Similarly equipped the prices aren’t THAT far apart
My M235i is basically a German SN95.
I think you can only take it upmarket if you combine it with Jack's idea. After it is taken up market, you can build souped up versions of Jack's idea, and have enough of a performance gap to justify it.
The Jag XK was an upmarket Mustang, nearly identical in dimensions to the contemporary Ford, V8 ect. Nobody bought it.
The market was much more crowded then, and nobody wants to buy anything with a Jaguar badge, which is why they rolled the dice on the “Faguar,” as some are calling the EV.
Also, Mustang GTD sold with ease and could be a halo for the upmarket Mustang.
Amazingly I have not heard nor thought of “faguar” but will be adding it to my lexicon.
Brought to you by the new head of Jaguar, Rawdon Glover
Or, his alter ego... Raw Dong Lover
Swear to god I thought the first time I saw his name attached to one of the press releases about that monstrosity that it was some sub-babylon bee knockoff. "There's no way this dude's name is "Raw Dong Lover", none.". But it is.
It may be the absurd name to top all absurd names. Beating out (I'm not kidding) Rover group's fuel injection engineer named Dick Spray
but is it pronnounced fag whar or fag u are
The latter
I first heard my octogenarian father use the term during the eighties, and he claimed it was a common appellation among the patrol officers of our local police department. It's not only the EV.
If they called it faguar I would buy one for shits and gigs
Ditto the RC F
The jaguar XK is an absolutely beautiful car, but it's hamstrung by not being much lighter or faster than an XJR, and when it was new you could have a 997 for less
" With the death of the Camaro, what else is available under $100K with a stick? M2 and M4, Nissan Z (a super exotic car, since I have only seen ONE on the road), maybe a few others?"
Miata has entered the chat.
And 86/BRZ, aka Miata coupe.
Sherman eats $30 burgers for lunch. Any car under $50k does not exist to him.
With a $15 side of fries and a $20 draft beer.
aioli is mentioned 7 times on the menu and the fries come in a small metal tray
Those are truffle fries. C’mon, man, where are you hanging out?
we dont have such luxuries in the peoples republic of canada
youre lucky if the fries are even hot
That is pure gold, right there, Speed.
Wait a minute … the average new car costs ~$48K, right? And that’s before tariffs (if any) and financing costs.
so the $30 burger thing is correct then
Yeah and in real dollars, not Loonies.
well yeah youre in america so it would be american dollars
also loonie is the the $1 coin
toonie is the $2 coin
Nice! 👍
I only know one person who has purchased a car costing more than $48k.
I didn’t mean people here. I don’t actually know any of you.
I bought an ES 350 Ultra Luxury in February. That cost comfortably over $55K. I thought it was good value, compared to the other stuff at that price (which was either loaded-up non-lux cars or very sparsely equipped lux ones).
It is a value at this point. Probably helps that the car hasn’t changed in a long time.
Easily the best bang for the buck in the new car market.
The Camaro will inevitably be back. Hopefully it won't be solely electric. If history repeats, it will leapfrog the Mustang in performance on return.
Ford has essentially made the current Mustang chassis a copy of the Camaro. The suspension designs are nearly identical.
Of course all of this engineering skullduggery goes back to the good old Aussies with the Zeta chassis. Which, in the Alpha iteration, is eerily similar to an E90 BMW.
This is the business equivalent of bending over and shouting "disrupt me harder Daddy" to whoever comes along and offers a compelling enthusiast car at a reasonable price.
You're also forgetting there a plethora of used cars available for anyone who isn't enamored of the utterly cynical shite being pushed by most major OEMs.
Did you pay attention when I wrote this above?:
“The creation of an affordable “enthusiast” car strikes me as fairly inconsequential. There are plenty of “enthusiast” cars out there - they are used cars.”
The affordable “enthusiast” market is a bad market to be in. How many new Nissan 400Zs have you seen? Over the past year I have seen as many McLaren Elvas (149 units worldwide) in the wild as I have Nissan 400Z examples (one apiece).
I'm not sure we move in the same circles.
I see mavericks everywhere, including several amongst the non auto-affiliated contingent at my daycare.
You don't see any 400Zs because they're awful and don't sell.
As far as moving the mustang upmarket, they've done that. You can go pay $300k mustang GTD, which is saved from being the worst value at that price point only by the Cadillac celestiq.
I'm also personally fine with used cars as an enthusiast option, especially as I can deal with the requisite maintenance myself. Not everyone has the inclination or a used Mulsanne's worth of workspace for that.
It's a barrier to entry for the enthusiast market. Whoever figures out how to tear down that barrier is going to disrupt the car market, having walked into a large addressable market with little competition. It likely won't be Ford
I dunno BRZ/GR86, and Miata are relatively affordable and they aren't disrupting anything. I'm surprised the brz/86 still exist.
Surprised Jack didn't jump in to say this but, the mustang works as a family car with some compromises. The Miata simply is amazing, the GR86 does the same thing but worse, but none of them work well as an only car.
Brz needs the turbo
Motor that’s a no brainer and Miata needs the Mazda tt inline 6. Stock ther cars as they exist now are slower than a. Minivan and while momentum is The art of driving in the USA hp and acceleration counts too
Same
Reason why the last mr2 failed
The universe is working against me today.
I saw a Nissan 400Z, my second ever. Manufacturer plate (Nissan has a small office in Vinings).
There aren’t enough enthusiasts left to make an “affordable” performance car viable. That ship has sailed. Used cars serve that function now.
Great choice with that Z4. I think that car should embarrass Porsche.
Problem is that you’ll eventually run out of the used inventory of said enthusiast vehicles.
There are millions of them out there!
And they have depreciated. We can worry about that when C5 Corvettes are getting the Singer treatment and a donor chassis costs six figures.
A used "value proposition" performance car has been beat like a rented mule. It is nothing at all like buying a new car.
And there are NO parts available EVER, I suppose.
I do t think you ca doa. Compelling ethicist cost at a reasonable price. Too many compromises
I guess the toyobaru and Miata comes closest. Both those cars would be better off with 50% more power even if they cost a bit more, today even a minivan can acellerate. Ironically Subaru makes a good turbo
Motor that would fix that car and Mazda has a nice twin turbo inline 6. For 5k? More per car they might have something g compelling.
If ford wnats the mustang to go a bit more upscale it would need a quality interior and build. I’ve seen new mustangs on the showroom floor that looked like they were assembled in Detroit in the early 70s. Is it. It a boomer Walter Mitty car ride days, a 4 wheeld harley softail?
Imo for the $ so many between choices other than the pseudo nostalgia schtick. I’ve also heard the suspension has minted adjustability for track.
The Camaro was a way better car but gm made it too small too limited in greenhouse and too crappy inside
I'm honestly surprised that we never got a Lincoln badged "XR7" on the current Mustang platform. Refine the suspension a little bit, keep the Ecoboost 4, toss on an actual interior and a different "retro" front fascia and you've got a decent 2 series/CLA/ G70 competitor for not much work.
Ecoboost 4 is low rent eagerness of hp or performance, same reason the current amg6.3 crashed sales
I would add that they need a non-turbo 6 or 4 cylinder. Something that runs on regular and has an engine that will last a couple hundred thousand miles. Make the car light enough, and suddenly you're getting great highway mileage. And yeah, no 'sits 4 adults'. Make that back seat an insurance dodge, like it was meant to be!
So basically a Challenger by Ford at a reasonable price?
I’d be interested as a commuter, but I also like the current eco boost mustang
I'd make it smaller than the challenger. Lighter too.
Start building those 2.5s again.
i dont hate the mustang 2 in large part due to my father purchasing a mustang 2 cobra 2 (white with green stripes) which was immediately and heavily modified
also your idea of a focustang isnt bad of an idea given that the mach ev thing exists and that might not have killed the mustang so surely a fun engine powered fwd mustang could survive in that market as well, no? bit odd having three different mustangs on the showroom floor though
Right on. What some commentators are forgetting is that Ford could/would offer the high-end models as well. In fact, those would help the Mustang II (or is it III?) with the halo affect.
Best thing ever to happen to a Mustang II: https://youtu.be/1IctSkdJICI?t=88